Nights Getting Worse - 5 Month Old

[Mom to M&M]

Hi guys. Things are getting worse here (DS turned 5 months on 11-5) so I broke off a new thread. Old one is linked here: http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=158908.15;topicseen

He USED to be a pretty good night sleeper - often going 6-8 hours after bedtime (no DF) until a night feed and then another 2-4 hours until waking for day, usually between 6:30-7. Not anymore - the last two nights he's woken before 1am (after falling asleep in crib independently around 7:15pm), back asleep between 2-2:30 and woken at 5 and cant' resettle him!

No paci, unfortunately not a thumb sucker either. Has a teddy/lovey. Falls asleep independently (with white noise machine) at night and after night feed in crib. CAN do it (but harder) for naps but due to schedule with DD he often falls asleep in car and then stays asleep motionless/parked in car seat. In the past few weeks I've noticed that he won't STAY asleep in the car seat as long/peacefully if out and about (used to sometimes run errands since he was already asleep) so I am going to make sure whenever possible to come home and let him continue nap here.

Few things I CAN'T change - (1) can't let him fuss too much or get too loud in crib at night/early morning. We are currently renting a townhouse and trying to buy a new house. But for now he doesn't have a proper room but rather an open area right outside DD's bedroom. So if he gets too loud it wakes her, even with her white noise machine. (2) can't change her schedule for drop-off/pick-up and can't have anyone else do that for me or pay for a sitter (3) can't make bedtime any earlier than 7 for the most part - impossible with dinner and all...

His routine used to LOOSELY be:

Wake approx 6:40
Nap approx 8-10
Nap approx 12-2
Nap approx 4:20-5
Bedtime 7-7:30
One NF usually between 2-3

But lately it's been
Wake approx 5, try to resettle in crib 5-6, then put in swing (which doesn't get him back to sleep but usually will at least keep him quiet longer)
Nap 8:30-9 (I leave for DD's pre-K run at 8:30) - he's been waking if I run an errand, like yesterday at grocery store at 8:55
Nap 10:45-12:30/12:45
Nap 3-4:30/5
Bedtime 7:15

The long late day nap definitely seems to make things worse, no? But he's just been so exhausted/cranky by then with the early waking and short first nap.... Ideas given my limitations? TIA!

[Mom to M&M]

Update - after seeing he was quiet in swing at 5:55 I jumped in shower at 6. When I got out at 6:15 he was asleep so I turned the swing off and he's still asleep now at 6:30. Obviously not an answer/solution but at least maybe it can help me get today back on track and go from there?

[Mom to M&M]

To continue matters, he half dozed for literally two minutes on way home from Pre-K drop-off this morning (just before 9) - after waking in swing at 7. Then he TOTALLY fought sleep until 10:55 and slept 3 hours. Hoping for a catnap around 4:15/4:30 and see what happens?

[brenda2]

hi
i know it's tough when you have to drop off/pick up the older kid.  the one thing that jumps out from your routine is that although he is doing 2 really good naps that first nap is not very good.  if he is doing ews you have to watch that first A time.  it is very long for just 5 mo - if he wakes up at 5 am he probably needs to have his first nap around 7 or 7:30  am at the latest to prevent OT and then you can work on pushing it later.

i hate the 5 min nap in the car/stroller that ruins the longer nap in the crib!!

i would not let him sleep longer than 2 hours unless you really think he needs to catch up on sleep, it can interfere with night sleep.

hth

[ryates71]

Hi Karen,

We have similar limitations around the school run so I can totally sympathise.  I seem to be able to work around the morning one but if all goes to plan it means his pm nap is interupted.  Throw in an EW and you just never know wether you are coming or going!

Anyway, this is what I do.  I watch the first A time and try whenever possible to stick to this.  So if he wakes early then that often means he has to go back down for a nap for 30m/45m BEFORE we leave the house.  I also take in another child for breakfast so what I do is get up early with DS, do his bottle, have a shower, do his solids, get the kids going on breakfast then go and put DS down.  Last thing I do before we leave the house is pick up DS from his cot.

At the end of the day we still occasionally have a catnap to avoid having too long between last nap and bedtime.  I do sometimes wake him from the second nap to ensure that we get that last nap instead of having to bring bedtime forward.

Hope that  helps
Rachel

[Mom to M&M]

Thanks guys! Oddly enough, he seems to do BETTER with a long morning A time - like 2.5-3 hours. Then, as long as we are home (or somewhere quiet/stroller covered) he seems to sleep well. Like yesterday he woke for the day 5:30, then slept from 8:35-9:55. Then he wants a shorter A time (like 2 hours) and slept from 12:05-1:40. Then did a catnap from 4:05-4:50. Tried for asleep by 7pm but he was screaming (with hand in mouth) and wouldn't sleep until almost 7:40. Then NW (starving) at 12:40, back to sleep about 1:10 and then EW at 4:40. Finally resettled from all of 5:45-6:25 and up for day. So even with pretty good naps yesterday he had a pretty bad night.

BUT must be at last partly teething as he's been really fussy, hand in mouth almost constantly and would only have 21 ounces yesterday instead of his usual 30-34. But who knows how long the teeth will take? I do use teething tablets but they don't help much and I can't give Motrin every day! His amber teething necklace should be here today I think - hopefully that helps.

Otherwise, not sure what to do? Is he maybe just not as good of a sleeper as DD naturally was? Plus since he gets schlepped around a lot and because i can't let him fuss too much for fear of waking her? I do know that my brother didn't sleep through the night until he was like 2 (!).

All thoughts appreciated!

[Mom to M&M]

More info - do I just have an LO with low sleep needs? Does he need more A time end of day? Seems lately to be settling into a one hour nap in morning...

Sunday:
Woke for day 5:40
Napped 8:35-9:40
Napped 11:45-12:50 (but half woke in middle)
Napped 3:15-4:30
Asleep for night 7:20 (or so)
No NW, slept straight until 5:35 (rarity for him)

Monday
Awake 5:35 but stayed relatively restful in dark room until 6:40 so counted as half awake time
Napped 8:35-9:35
Napped 11:55-1:45
Napped 4:10-5 (I woke him)
Asleep by 7:15 if not few minutes sooner
NW (very hungry/upset) 11:30
NW 3:30 (but quickly resettled himself)
EW 5 - stayed in "room" until 5:30, now in swing (in very dark room) for fear of waking big sister otherwise

ETA - maybe he was really just hungry? Finally had to feed him at 6 and he was super tired but hungry and quickly had almost 6 ounces and was back to sleep by 6:25 - will wake him at 7 to start day?

Any thoughts appreciated!

[brenda2]

sounds like he may just have low sleep needs.  if he is not doing 30 min naps and not having a lot of nws and not cranky when he is awake then maybe this is working for him and he just needs less sleep than average and is an early riser??  the 1 hour naps usually mean UT - although at 5 mo 3 hours A time is a lot, i would be hesitant to increase it.  and a 2 hour nap yesterday is fantastic.  so it is really just the ew that is the problem?  i don't know what to suggest...ew can mean OT or UT...what happens if you change bedtime?  if you put it earlier does he wake at the same time but sleep longer over night?  if you put it later does he wake up later?  like if you hadn't woken him up from that last catnap yesterday but let him sleep a little longer and then put him to bed a little later would that get you a later wake up in the morning?  this is what i would probably do.  add in a later catnap or let it be longer and try to push bedtime later.

[Mom to M&M]

Thanks Brenda. DD was (and still is) a naturally early riser. Despite everything we did back then, she was stuck at a 5:40 am wakeup for a LONG time. At least now she usually makes it to at least 6:30, sometimes later - and stays in her room resting/reading until 7....

Today, after waking in swing at 7:10 after the EW, he fell asleep at 9:10 on way home from Pre-K run. Slept exactly an hour again so up at 10:10. Was tired/fussy by 11:40 (!) - left here 11:50 to go to BRU and extended him a bit that way - asleep at just after 12:20 and still sleeping now at basically 1:20.

Usually he wakes on his own from the catnap after 35 minutes. Happy at first, but fussy/tired again very soon.

Should I be happy with the one hour AM nap, even though he seems tired/fussy sooner than expected for PM nap? And make PM nap sooner if need be? Or try to extend morning nap somehow? If today he manages a 2 hour PM nap (so up by 2:25), I'm guessing he'll be asleep again by 4:45 and up 5:20. Is asleep by 7:30 for the night then reasonable? Too long or too short? Argh...

[Tweakster]

Hi there Karen, it's normal of them to have shorter A time after only a 1 hour nap and a shorter A time after the CN - because the day catches up with them.  It's ok if he does a shorter AM nap and then a longer PM nap, this works for some LO's.  Just watch for OT and because he is waking earlier his bedtime should be a tad earlier.  Even if he's on low sleep needs the shorter nights tend to catch up with them.

[NadeneR]

Just to add from my own experience, when DD was 5 mo, she also started taking shorter am naps and was on 2h15 A time. I gradually extended till we got to 3hrs and that sorted things out completely. I was also told that 3hrs was way too long for her age, but that it was possible that she was on the high side of A time. Maybe that is the case with your lo?

Agree that he needs shorter A time if he's only had an hour am nap.

Certainly does sound like teething is playing a bit of a role as well.

[Mom to M&M]

Thanks Wendy and Nadene. The one hour thing may just be an "it is what it is" sort of thing - since regardless of A time he seems to be doing that lately. So then best to let him nap when he needs to for second nap but try to stretch A time as much as can without OT? Today he napped from 9:10-10:10 and then 12:20-2:20. Thinking catnap around 4:40 - if he's not up by 5:15 do I wake him? Or let him have full 45 minutes if he wants/needs? Or less? And then if he is up 5:15 after catnap what is reasonable bedtime at 5.5 months?

Teething definitely isn't helping matters. But teething tablets don't really seem to help and I don't want to give Motrin daily! I try to save that for when absolutely necessary.

[clazzat]

Not sure if I am allowed to say this, but what your lo is doing is almost exactly what the "other" routine suggests: sleep 9-10, 12.30-2.30, catnap 4.15/4.30-5.  I did it with dd1 and it worked really well - the "rules" meant that you should make sure he doesn't sleep past 5pm as it interferes with a 7pm bedtime.

I didn't really do that routine with dd2 - as I am here, you can probably guess that I took a more BW route - but I did have some of the same restrictions as you do so I used the "other" routine as guidance so we always did a short am/long lunchtime nap.

From my experience with dd2, I would say that your problem is probably more to do with teeth than anything else - we went through exactly the same thing which calmed down when the teeth came through, then flared up again when the next tooth started to cause problems. 

I think what I am trying to say is that the routine he is choosing can work, so I wouldn't mess with it too much, and that teeth is a likely culprit so you might have to try giving meds when he wakes in the morning and ride it out.  I have also been able to AP an hour or so after an EW - I get into bed with dd2 - without it becoming a major issue (she always sleeps later if she can) so it might be worth trying while the teeth are bothering him.

[Mom to M&M]

I think I know which "other" routine you mean but to be honest, I've never read up on that one! He just seems to be falling into this himself - although it's flexible based on wake up time and DD's needs - which can't be changed. Darn teeth! OK will see how catnap goes today and take it from there, assuming bedtime between 7-7:30 depending?

[clazzat]

The "other" routine doesn't really allow for 'depending' - either everything is done at the right time or it is wrong!    Having said that, if you have the luxury of setting bedtime at 7 I think that it can work pretty well - and you would wake him at 5 to make sure that he went down okay at 7.

Incidentally, the reason that the "other" routine was set with the times it has is that they are the times that a lot of babies fall into naturally so it shouldn't be too difficult to work with. 

I hasten to add that I am not saying that you should conform to what the other one suggests, but it might be worth having a quick read given that he is doing it himself anyway - the real joy I found with it was the predictability which is invaluable when you have an older one to accommodate.