Author Topic: 4 month old terrible at napping  (Read 5893 times)

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Offline loopylala

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Re: 4 month old terrible at napping
« Reply #30 on: December 11, 2009, 10:47:57 am »
Since the potential reflux/food allergy thing may take a couple of months to sort out, am I supposed to abandon sleep training in the meanwhile?  Ie let my baby dictate when he wants to wake and sleep?

I'm still having the same problems - the early mornings, the short naps, the constant screaming (if I try and put him down after he wakes, he'll scream the whole time until his next feed is due despite yawning).

I'll have to give gaviscon a few weeks to see if it works and don't know what I should be doing whilst waiting that duration. 

He's slept 20 minutes in the last 6 and a half hours, and I'm STILL trying to get him down.  Do I abandon all now?


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Re: 4 month old terrible at napping
« Reply #31 on: December 11, 2009, 20:17:34 pm »
You must be frazzled.  I think you try to make lo as comfortable as possible knowing that you can always slowly remove a lot of the extra things you may be doing to get your little one to sleep. 

Can you see a gastroenterologist (gi)?   

Does lo use a paci?  It is also a nonmedical adjustment, and it may help your lo soothe?

Offline Canwi

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Re: 4 month old terrible at napping
« Reply #32 on: December 12, 2009, 13:24:59 pm »
Reading this while pumping so don't have enough hands to give a good reply.
(((Hugs))) for you and hopefully will be back later with some ideas.
 
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hrk

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Re: 4 month old terrible at napping
« Reply #33 on: December 12, 2009, 19:18:03 pm »
If you feed early, is he soothed temporarily?  H was a frequent feeder, and swallowing can temporarily soothe their throat.  That is what I am wondering with the paci, if it may help or if it doesn't make a difference.  H would want to feed about every 1.5 hrs (2.5-3 the rarest max).  That is why he was HUGE, and was nearly 30 lbs at 12 months.  Going on the prevacid extended it to 4 hrs with me sometimes having to introduce it.  However, if your lo has an allergy/intollerance, feeding can be agravating and causing symptoms.

I will say that I did wean the paci and night feedings at about 7 months under our pedi's advice.  At 8.5 months we had weaned both.  I completely regret taking away any way for him to soothe himself.   :'(  She thought that was causing all the wakings.  It was 9 months we went on the higher dose of meds.  I feel terrible knowing that happened.  It did lead to our pedi believing that I wasn't the problem (not sure if you are getting that feedback from anyone), and she was willing to increase the dose even though the hospital was on her about writing higher doses for reflux.  (Seriously, that is what she told me.)  I guess that is where I am coming from regarding making your lo comfortable until you know/think the reflux or other issue are not a factor.  It was sooooooo much easier to decrease my assistance when he was feeling well.  I felt like I was banging my head on a wall, otherwise.  You have lots of eyes and ears to listen.  I kept going back to the dr until we finally got it right.  Wish we had just gone to the gi right away instead of dealing with our pedi.  Hope you are doing ok today.

Jean

Offline loopylala

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Re: 4 month old terrible at napping
« Reply #34 on: December 13, 2009, 14:21:11 pm »
Hey guys,

Is is ok if we forget about the reflux for the moment (which I'm still not convinced that it is...... he's fine when he's laid in the cot/in his pram, it's ONLY when I put him on his side, ie, his cue to sleep, that he kicks up a fuss).  Until I give the gaviscon a go, and then make an appointment to see a specialist, he still needs to sleep,  I still don't know how to play the short naps.

He weaned himself off his dummy a long time back, and if I try and place it in his mouth he either ignores it if he's crying or spits it out when he's not. 

So can someone please help me out with what I should do if he only has 20 minute naps in the day.  He'll go down to sleep normally within 5/10 minutes of trying first time around, and then wakes up 20 to 30 minutes later.  If I sit with him the whole duration and ssh him as he stirs, he sometimes resettles for a short amount of time.  If I'm not there he wakes up screaming.  After that I try and help him back to sleep but he can cry up until his next feed.  If I leave him in his cot, on his back, he'll calm down and play by himself, but as soon as I put him on his side he begins the screaming again.  I know this website says to shorten the next A time, but if EVERY nap is 20-30 minutes how do I play it until those naps start to lengthen?  What should my EASY routine look like.... will I have to feed him little and often?  And what should I do when he wakes up after that nap?..... Do I get him up to play for a bit of time before retrying or try and make him sleep from the moment he wakes until his next feed (this is what I'm currently doing with no success) or do I let him play until his next feed time?  I really need some nap advice right now......

Thanks

Offline Canwi

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Re: 4 month old terrible at napping
« Reply #35 on: December 13, 2009, 23:10:47 pm »
Sorry took me a while to get back here.

I’ve pulled these two posts you did to highlight a couple of things that really make me agree with Jean and Becky that your LO quite possibly has either some kind of food intolerance or reflux.
He has his fist in his mouth at every available opportunity, and tends to fuss when breastfeeding, and often cries with the bottle (he wants the milk..... takes the bottle but after a few sucks starts crying whilst drinking.  I don't think it's wind as I make sure I wind him very frequently, and he still continues to fuss even when a burp comes up).
LO’s who have pain in their oesophagus will do anything to try to alleviate the pain.  They think that any liquid going down their throat is going to help.  So while sucking on the fist may indicate teeth, it could also be a symptom of an irritated esophagus.
So at eating time, baby has 2 kinds of pain.  Hunger pain and ‘reflux’ pain.  Baby knows that eating will make one better and one worse.  What a terrible decision!  :'(  So they eat a little to take the edge of the hunger pain and then stop before the ‘reflux’ pain gets worse. This results in a snacking kind of eating pattern.  Fussing even after burping is due to the ‘reflux’ pain.

Since the potential reflux/food allergy thing may take a couple of months to sort out, am I supposed to abandon sleep training in the meanwhile?  Ie let my baby dictate when he wants to wake and sleep?

I'm still having the same problems - the early mornings, the short naps, the constant screaming (if I try and put him down after he wakes, he'll scream the whole time until his next feed is due despite yawning).

I'll have to give gaviscon a few weeks to see if it works and don't know what I should be doing whilst waiting that duration.  

He's slept 20 minutes in the last 6 and a half hours, and I'm STILL trying to get him down.  Do I abandon all now?
No, you do not abandon everything. But you cannot force a child who is in pain to sleep.
You will need to do some sort of APOP (= accidental parenting on purpose) to get your LO a reasonable amount of sleep.  He may be very chronically overtired and the short naps are his way of 'taking the edge' off his tiredness IYKWIM without actually getting good restful sleep.  He is probably getting crabby when he is put on his side as he associates that with pain also.  So if he gets fussy when he is laid on his side, can you teach him to sleep on his back?  Which side do you put him down on?  He will sleep at night out of sheer exhaustion, but as soon as the “edge” is off his tiredness, the pain will wake him and good luck getting him back to sleep.

So choose some sort of APOP that you feel is relatively easy to undo once you have his discomfort sorted out.  If he won’t fall asleep in your arms, then try a different position in his crib.

My DS2 had an EASY “cycle” that was eat (over an hour to take ~ 60 mL ::)), activity (~ 1-1.5hr) and sleep (~ 45min) until he was almost 6 months old, when I finally convinced a doctor that we needed to make changes to DS2’s medications to FINALLY control his reflux.
It was exhausting, but the only way I could get a decent amount of food and sleep into my son.

Now onto the food intolerances thing.  What kind of formula is your LO on?  The most common food intolerance is dairy or milk protein intolerance (= MPI).  If your LO has MPI then it causes irritation somewhere in the gastrointestinal system.  If it shows up in the lower end of the system it causes irritation in the bowels and is diagnosed by blood in the poop either microscopic or visable.  If it shows up in the upper end of the system, it causes irritation in the oesophagus and has symptoms that mimic reflux.
To rule out MPI you need to put the LO on a soy or hypoallergenic formula and eliminate dairy from your diet.  It will take 2-3 days for the milk proteins to come out of your system, and can take up to 6 weeks for irritation in LO’s system to heal.  If you decide to do this, you need to be vigilant at making sure that you take all milk products and things that contain milk protein out for a minimum of 2 weeks.  There’s a good list of names that milk protein hides under on the food allergies board.
If you don’t notice a difference, then try reintroducing milk proteins back into your diet one thing at a time.  So a glass of milk for instance.  Then watch your LO for any sort of reaction.  Wait a 4-5 days and then add something else.  If you see no obvious difference, then milk isn’t the issue.  Try the same thing with eggs and wheat as they are also big things for causing food intolerances.

The idea that all reflux babies will scream when laid flat isn’t true.  My DS2 was a happy baby as long as he wasn’t sleeping or eating.  He was a fussy eater who would refuse milk from breast or bottle at one stage.  He screamed every night for 45 minutes, he napped for 45 minutes every nap, he woke 2-5 times a night for a feed and woke screaming.  But never a bad moment on a change table and would tolerate some tummy time.

HTH and (((Hugs)))
« Last Edit: December 21, 2009, 17:08:26 pm by Canwi »
 
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Offline loopylala

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Re: 4 month old terrible at napping
« Reply #36 on: December 15, 2009, 21:06:13 pm »
Thanks very much for all that info!

One major question I have about it is this..... can some babies not have pain when eating if they suffer from reflux?  Since my boy doesn't really scream, or cry in pain when he eats, it makes me dubious that he has it.  But I could very well be wrong.

The last couple of days have been interesting.... good for sleep, bad for food!
Yesterday he woke at 4am, and unfortunately he didn't go down until 7.  BUT, we then had one 1 hour nap, one 1 hour 45 minute nap, one 1 hour 10 nap, and one half an hour nap!!!!!  All of them taking around 2 minutes to settle to sleep. AMAZING!  None of them needed me to intervene by ssshing or holding down.  Incredible!  He then went on to have his night's sleep until just before 5am which is very good for him.  Today started off well.... back down at 6.30 for an hour and a half, then a nap of one hour 10.  It went a bit awry from that point as I took him out for a walk.  Won't be doing that in a hurry again!  He really does get stimulated by being out and about.  He was being moved about in the pram for the whole duration (2 and a half hours) and he managed a 20 minute nap, despite yawning the whole time.  I took him out half an hour before he was due a nap, thinking he had that time to get bored and let the sleepyness take over.  No such luck.  He seems to defy the AP ways!!!!  So that kind of screwed up the next nap as he was OT.  Never mind, one thing to tick off the list.

Feeding wise.... he's been a bit weird recently.  He's not feeding as much.  Clearly I can't tell from the boob (which seems normal in terms of time spent on me), but a few days ago he would wolf down 7oz in the bottle, and it's a real struggle to get that now.  He tends to drink 4-5oz, and it's taking a long time to do.  He doesn't cry (as I wrote from my query above), but just turns his head to the side or pushes the bottle away.  Nor does he cry after.  In fact, over the last few days he's barely cried at all - he's really happy all the time (something to do with me not forcing him to sleep I suspect!!!)  Does this compound the fact you think it's reflux, or could he just be not as hungry for a small time?

Regardless, I have an appointment with a specialist sorted, although I think the meds are trial and error, no?  So it's a case of waiting and seeing.

Thanks again for all your help!


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Re: 4 month old terrible at napping
« Reply #37 on: December 16, 2009, 00:06:32 am »
Eating soothed the pain for H; it caused all kinds of issues when he went to lay down.  Upright, he was my bouncing baby boy once on his low dose of meds and not screaming for food every 1.5+ hrs.  Naps were not as bad for us as night.  I suspected H's lower esophageal sphincter (les) was relaxing, and causing lots of issues, too.  Swallowing can temporarily soothe the esophagus...

Maybe the gaviscon is helping a little now with naps and feeding?  If the improvement is coinciding with the meds, I suspect a medical issue...I am glad you can have a specialist see your lo.  Are you still bfing, formula feeding, and using meds?

hrk

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Re: 4 month old terrible at napping
« Reply #38 on: December 21, 2009, 02:51:47 am »
Are things still getting better?  Hopefully the gaviscon is helping to prevent any more erosion in the esophagus (giving it a chance to heal a little if that is the problem) and lo doesn't need to eat to soothe as much (if lo seems to still be needing to eat less) thus allowing naps to get better, too.  How are things?

Offline becky1969

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Re: 4 month old terrible at napping
« Reply #39 on: December 21, 2009, 16:26:30 pm »
I agree with PP -- screaming in pain while eating doesn't have to be one of the symptoms.  Eating soothed my son.  He was downing 4 oz bottles at 5 days old b/c he was trying to soothe his throat.  We didn't get him properly dx until 16 weeks because he didn't show a lot of the typical reflux symptoms.  We just had crazy night sleep primarily, and occasionally he'd scream for 2 hours before bedtime.  But other than that he almost never cried -- not even when hungry!  HOwever, once we got him on meds those crazy NWs were reduced a lot (tho he cried out in his sleep every 2 hours like clockwork until 12 months old). 

Hope it's going better!
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Offline loopylala

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Re: 4 month old terrible at napping
« Reply #40 on: December 24, 2009, 16:05:11 pm »
Hi lovely ladies,

Thanks for checking up on me.  I saw a paediatrician who specialises in gastro-enterology and he wasn't sure if it's reflux or not.  I do have the medication (domperidone and ranitidine) ready and waiting though in my kitchen cupboard.  It's just that he started getting better at naps just before I started seeing him, and also started eating more/throwing up less.  That's without the gaviscon.  Maybe I'm a bit of a hippy at heart and don't like the thought of giving medicine unless it's absolutely necessary.  So I decided, whilst he was getting better at sleeping and eating I'd leave those meds in the cupboard, but if he starts flaring up again I'd give them a go.

He has been a lot better.  One night waking and then ready to start the day around 5.30-6am (eek!).  During the day those naps are a doddle for him to go to sleep.... no crying or fussing, and eyes shut within a couple of minutes of being laid down.  I'm still having problems with him staying asleep.  It's a bit hit and miss.  Sometimes he can stay asleep without any assistance for over an hour, but more often than not he needs me next to him to ssshhh him when he stirs.  Either that, or, if I'm not around he'll wake up and want to play (despite being tired still).  At those times I sometimes manage to get him back off to sleep with about 20 minutes of resistance, or he manages to be more stubborn than me and I can't get him back into dreamland.

I've had two occasions where he slept for 2 hours, which I was very excited about.... most of the time it's around the hour, hour ten minute mark.  In total now he's managing to sleep between 13 and 14 hours a day, which I know isn't perfect but it's much better than it was a few weeks ago.  He's happy when awake so at least I'm not having to deal with a grizzly baby.

Last night was a nightmare though, and I think he might be teething.  He has the signs for it.... rosy cheeks, dribbling nonstop, anything and everything in the mouth, pulling on his ears etc.  Normally when I put him down around 7pm we don't hear a peep until the early hours of the morning, but he was restless after 10 minutes.  He managed to stay asleep until 9.30pm, but was wrestling about and making noises so I knew he wasn't settled properly.  Then began screaming until midnight.  Spent the rest of the time doing AP unfortunately.  I ended up sleeping in the bed with him snuggled right against me just so he'd calm down.....  ssh/pat wasn't even worth thinking about last night.... he was clearly in pain as he was crying badly in my arms.  And that restless sleep continued all the way til 10am.....  half an hours kip for him here and there.  I'm popping him into bed a fair amount today in the hope he'll catch up on his sleep a bit.  And he doesn't seem to be in pain anymore so I'm hoping he might have a better night.

Reflux or teething eh?  How on earth can we work these things out?! 

Merry Christmas everyone by the way!!!!

hrk

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Re: 4 month old terrible at napping
« Reply #41 on: December 24, 2009, 18:39:31 pm »
Hmmm, sounds like a case of the teething monster right now.  Good news about the longer naps here and there.  If sleeping starts to fall in line w/o meds, that would be great! Could you try the homeopathic teething tablets (by hylands, I think), if you are leery about motrin or tylenol?  I cannot remember the age on them, but they may be something to check out.

Did the gi mention if he thought there could be an intollerance or allergy, or to try adjusting anything dietary?

Are you doing 3 or 4 naps based on what time he wakes?  Are there any particular nap that the "not tired enough" is happening?  H was usually ready for his first nap.  When we went from 4 to 3, I found I could stretch the later two but not the first.  Could anything like that work?  Any relation to longer A time equalling longer nap at this point?  Probably not, but I thought I would ask.

It is hard to tell between teething and reflux.  For us, teething increased the reflux discomfort.  The only thing that helped with teething was motrin.  But too much motrin was hard on his tummy and could flare the reflux.  So, they kind of went hand in hand.

Perhaps you will start to get a sense of his teething style once you see something break through.  If symptoms subside after teeth appear, think it will give you a better idea.  I wish they could just tell us when and where they are hurting.  It sure would save a lot of sleepless nights, eh!

More hugs to you and wishes for a wonderful holiday. 
Jean :-)

Offline Irish0028

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Re: 4 month old terrible at napping
« Reply #42 on: December 28, 2009, 03:42:11 am »
My son is 14 weeks old and fits into this category. Just this week his what used to be 2 or 2 1/2 hour naps have turned into 30 minutes. He normally is so happy and a good baby and has now turned into a crying/fussy baby. I know it's because he is so overtired. I put him in his crib for an hour this morning for his 9:00 nap and he would not go down. I guess I should stick to the EASY routine instead of just looking for the tired cues. I will also pay attention to the jolts, but one thing I have noticed is his 1:00 (ish) nap he won't take- it's like 30 minutes and then sometimes turns into a nap from 3-6 because he is so exhausted. This is way too late for a nap. So, does following the EASY routine and holding them through the jolts help to get him back on track? Just want to make sure I have everything.
Mom to two little lads- Braden John (9.22.09) and Liam Jude (8.22.11)

Offline loopylala

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Re: 4 month old terrible at napping
« Reply #43 on: January 02, 2010, 17:29:34 pm »
To be honest, I've kept a strict diary of his sleeping and feeding for a month now, and there is absolutely no sense to any of it.  No patterns whatsoever.  If he sleeps well at night (that's 10 hours for us in total between 7pm and 7am) or bad (8-9 hours), it doesn't make any change to his naps.  If he has a great 2 hour nap in the morning, he'll then go on to have a half an hour one next time, despite not over stimulating and keeping the timing correct.  Or he can have a bad nap and then go on to have a 2 hour one later on.  During the night he can wake at 4am (ie after 9 hours sleep) then I'll get him down at 5am for him to wake up 30 minutes later.  Nothing makes sense at all.

One bad thing though..... he's definitely using me as a prop.  He won't go to sleep without me ssshh-patting him.  And he needs me there to extend his naps or they end up being 20 minutes to half an hour.  I thought by sitting in there with him for his sleep I would be able to extend them and then he'd learn to self soothe.  But it's increasingly obvious after 3 plus months of doing this religiously, it's just not working for him.  He can sleep, but only with me there.  He can sometimes have longer naps, but only with me there.  I can't see him changing at all. 


hrk

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Re: 4 month old terrible at napping
« Reply #44 on: January 02, 2010, 19:52:00 pm »
H was the same about needing me to sh/pat.  It was his reflux and he needed comforting and could not stay asleep as there was discomfort when laying down for longer periods of time.  As we discussed before it could be teething, reflux, an intollerance, or a combo of some sort, or a combo mixed with something else.  If he isn't "learning to self soothe", I think there may be some discomfort there (especially after giving it 3 months).  As I said before, weaning the amt of interventions/props to get H to sleep were so much easier once we had the right meds and nonmed adjustments working. 

Curious as to what made the gi think that it may not be a gi issue...