Author Topic: Another episode of 2-1 transition.....please help-10 months  (Read 4272 times)

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Offline annette.xx

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Re: Another episode of 2-1 transition.....please help-10 months
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2009, 13:53:28 pm »
Hi

sounds like you had a great day! amazing getting 2 good naps and good bedtime! (my LOs bedtime was 5.30pm...so early but got 12 hrs sleep in...yay!!)...

I figured something out about a month ago whilst looking at my sleep logs (yes I still do these sometimes!!) and ive found that 11+ hrs night sleep always follows days of no more than 10 hrs A time...

this is the combined length of all awake times throughout the day...

age appropriate sleep needs is 14 - 14.5 hrs sleep (obviously tho all babies are different!!)..some experts say 15 hrs at this age still??!!!!!

so the length of your day needs to match the length of naps and night sleep into a 24 hr day...

so if you get 2.5 hrs day sleep then to get a well rested baby you need 11.5 - 12 hrs night sleep this means your best length of day would be 12 - 12.5 hrs ....that would allow 2.5 hrs naps and the right bedtime for a nice long 11.5 hr sleep...

so a 13 hr day would still be ok but you would need 3 hrs total naps to then get the remainding 11 hrs night sleep...

I went wrong with my routine (which was going so well!!) when I got a shorter pm nap (its normally 2 hrs) it was 1 hr 1/2 ...i know that sounds long enough but I kept bedtime the same and it meant that my LO had 10.5 hrs A time in a 12 hr day and guess what....EW!!

thats what happened with my early bedtime last night...my LO looked so tired and had again shorter napped in the pm after a EW as well so 10 hrs A time was at 5.30! I thought I was being silly but did get 12 hrs sleep out of it! (tho it of course was again at 5.30!!) but with mashis help im thinking if I can try and get an extra 30 mins sleep in today I can stretch it back out again and get more like a 6.15/6.30 bedtime...but not sure i will be so lucky!!....

sorry I know it sounds all a bit overthought (lol!!!! ::) but seriously thats the pattern I see happening to me!!

fingers crossed you had a nice long night sleep...what time did he wake?

Annette.xx :-*

Offline Mashi

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Re: Another episode of 2-1 transition.....please help-10 months
« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2009, 14:03:11 pm »
Annette you are really on the right track with all of that .... I twigged into it when DS was about the same age as Jasmine and it REALLY helped me keep on track through the earliest starts of 2-1 and I still use it now.

Working the math backwards has been HUGE in helping me and I've found that I've helped a few moms on here with that method as well - it's not going against A times, but using the WHOLE picture to your advantage. That's why I always say I can't say a nap time or length without knowing what the nightsleep was the night before and/or regularly is!

Offline greenteamomma

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Re: Another episode of 2-1 transition.....please help-10 months
« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2009, 14:13:34 pm »
Hey there, I have to start logging again...I was driving myself crazy with it, REALLY crazy!  Annette, that does sound like it makes sense. 

So, he slept very well.  I'm so used to his little crying out episodes that I had to go check he was breathing....can never win! 
He woke at 6:05 but since he was in bed a little past 7, it's not really that bad.  Hubby and I were thinking back to when he was waking at 6:45 and that was when he was going down at 7:30 AND waking at 4:00 pm from his late nap.  Sounds like maybe, 3.5 ish is the magic pm A time number (at least to keep in mind). 
We are going to try for 9:30 or 9:45 for the nap this morning and 30 mins.  then we'll see where that gets us today.  fingers crossed ladies

Now, as for development, HE HAS STARTED WALKING!!!!!  We are so proud.  He's been taking steps since last night and this morning, he couldn't stop!  He's getting brave and not looking for something to "get to" just going sometimes so it will be a rough day to avoid some potential tumbles.   


Offline annette.xx

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Re: Another episode of 2-1 transition.....please help-10 months
« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2009, 14:22:32 pm »
oh so do you use the total sleep needs taken from the night before the day your on ...IYKWIM?!!

I always think of it the other way so see what day I get to determine the best timing for next nap, bedtime etc to try and get that night over 11 hrs sleep...

think it sounds better doing the reverse like you...

or I suppose a combination of both!!

greenteamomma (sorry dont know your name!) - I think your plan sounds good...go with your instinct...

wow...walking! my word thats great! my Jasmine is still nowhere near walking! shes a happy crawler I think! tho she does like to stand all day!....

with the walking I wouldnt be suprised if the routine goes a little out of sync in day and then you suddenly start getting long nights again!...this is always what happens to me after a few days of NIGHTMARES!!!!! ...keeping my fingers crossed that you dont see the walking gremlins at night!!!! lol!!!

Annette.xx

Offline Mashi

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Re: Another episode of 2-1 transition.....please help-10 months
« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2009, 14:28:52 pm »
NO, I use the day's naps to determine what I expect to happen at night, but then have to look at the previous night to figure out a day.

SOif LO is a regular 11.5 hour sleeper and say does 3.5hA and then 1hr nap, and then one night has horrible NWs and gets 10h of sleep, I would not expect a 3.5h A to get a 1hr nap.  Make sense?

Also we found once DS started walking his A times were dropped drastically because he was using SO much more energy at each A time by focusing on walking non stop, that he had to go for his naps much earlier than he used to!  So, gtm that could be some of what is happening now, if you are getting OT naps on his old A times?

Offline greenteamomma

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Re: Another episode of 2-1 transition.....please help-10 months
« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2009, 15:09:47 pm »
Well...I don't know what's up....Put him down at 9:35 and didn't hear a peep and then 10 minutes later, laughter, whispery babbles.  I went up and he was sitting.  I brought him out after 5 mins, started over again.  I just put him down at 10:05 but he's not sleeping yet, I can hear him suck his fingers.  
The UT naps might not work for him.   It's pretty much the same as last time, with the 15 mins. that time I didn't put him back down, this time I learned. 
« Last Edit: November 27, 2009, 15:20:04 pm by greenteamomma »


Offline greenteamomma

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Re: Another episode of 2-1 transition.....please help-10 months
« Reply #21 on: November 28, 2009, 18:53:09 pm »
We are still struggling with OT.  It may be teething or walking or he's catching a cold.  He's very clingy today and whiny. 
As for yesterday, he slept 30 mins and I woke him since I felt it was late when he finally went down.  I shouldn't have now that I see the bigger picture.  In the pm, he slept 2 hrs till 3:30.  We put him down at 7:00, he tossed a big but didn't whine.  He slept well but was up around 5:30 (not sure exactly) then fell quiet and woke again around 6:10.  Now I doubt whether he sleeps or not..... ::)
We put him down at 9:30 for am nap and he slept till 10:10.  We let him wake on his own.  He woke tired and was whiny all morning.  He only got energy back after lunch and only for a little while.  He might be teething or catching a cold.  I gave him his bottle around 1:10.  By 1:20 he was sound asleep in his crib.  Bed early tonight but I hope he has a good 2 hr nap so I don't have to put him down too early! 


Offline gavinsmum1

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Re: Another episode of 2-1 transition.....please help-10 months
« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2009, 04:04:58 am »
Wow, I'm poking my head in here, because my LO is almost 11 months and we've had to do a lot of work with his routine and we are still struggling with EWs and short pm naps some days.  I'd like to track how things are going with your LOs and maybe glean some advice for my situation.  Annette, you made some really interesting points in pp about looking at the whole picture.  I now realize that I've also been pushing my LO too far and we're in a bit of a mess.  I just thought that all this funny business was the start of the transition as well.  My first transitioned to one nap~NO PROBLEM~ at 14 months.  It was a breeze.  I can now see that this is going to be a much more complicated ride!!!
Good luck ladies, I'm here to share my experience and advice when I can.


Offline greenteamomma

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Re: Another episode of 2-1 transition.....please help-10 months
« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2009, 15:17:10 pm »
Mashi had some great advice too.  It isn't always the transition, just a developmental speed bump.  I would cut back without considering other factors.  Also, a wake at this many minutes vs this many minutes another day isn't always OT or UT.  It can also just be random, too.   
We have let LO sleep a full cycle for a few days in the am now and have been having some better, less restless pm naps of 2+ hrs!  So we have uncut his cut nap!!!!  Here's our routine since Sunday:

Wake 6:20
nap 9:40 ish to 10:20 or 10:25 (he wakes but I would not let him longer then this)
nap 1:45ish to 3:40ish 
Bed 7:15. 

So, a 13 hr day works for us but not for all babes.  He's on the higher A time routine.  Even with a short nap, his second a time is still almost as long as his first.  They are actually almost all the same but it's just a coincidence.    We still have crying out (another thread I had going a while back) which I don't know what that's all about.  Its never a full wake, just a whine every few hours a couple of times a night.  I think its a combination of SA, not finding his sooky blanket in the dark (in the morning, when I go in to get him and turn on the light, he crawls right over to the blanket and ignores me!)  and maybe even growing pains since he's almost walking.  Oh and I'm sure teething too! 
In the morning, we have EW cryouts too starting around 4:20.  He then cries out again and again and again until he lets out a big yawn and then wispers to himself.  That's AWAKE!  I think those are habitual since they are always at the same time, even when the day starts later or earlier.  Hubby says he just talks in his sleep like his momma!  The problem is that MOMMA wakes and APPA doesn't!  ::)


Offline Mashi

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Re: Another episode of 2-1 transition.....please help-10 months
« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2009, 19:21:10 pm »
My DS did the 13 hour day from 11 months and routine was pretty much identical to yours for a long while.  (Actually at 12 months his morning nap went UP to one hour as he needed the extra sleep while he was cutting teeth). 

Whether or not they do a 12 hour day or a 13 hour day will pretty much depend on their nightsleep. At this age some LOs will do a 12 hour night and others won't.  If they will only do an 11 hour night no matter WHAT then you are better off to get the extra sleep in the day....otherwise you are always trying to catch up from a "short night" which was not really a short night at all. KWIM?

My LO did an 11 hour night until about 12 months and then it increased to 11.5 hours. 

The cryouts at 430ish can be from a LOT of different things.  At that time of day (usually between 430 - 530) hormone levels drop as does your body temperature.  The melatonin that regulates sleep is at it's lowest point.  It is a very common time for babies (and adults!) to start moving into a lighter phase of sleep.  For adults we can often roll over and look at the clock and groan and go back to sleep - but sometimes we end up lying awake until a moment before the alarm goes off, right? LOs are the same way....if all is perfect for them (still tired, not OT or UT, perfect temperature with the bedroom not too hot and not too cold, diaper not wet, lovey in hand perfectly, no pain from teeth, no tummy aches, no missing mommy, no hearing the cat meow) and so on, then LO can just roll over and go back to sleep.  But one thing not quite right....and LO is wide awake shouting for mommy. I'm sure that some LOs are more sensitive and particular than others, too!  We have an ongoing battle in our house, DH wakes and needs to go to the bathroom at 5am ish and always wakes DS when he gets up.  But he insists that he heard DS waking and that is what woke HIM up in the first place...chicken and egg.  ::)

Also, going back to your routine -- you said in the morning nap from 940 - 1020/5ish  that he wakes, but you would not let him sleep longer than this anyway.  You are right with this. He is waking at 40/45 minutes as he was UT, which is exactly what you want for this morning nap at this point in 2-1.  If you pushed him to the point where he was properly tired and then woke him from that 45 minute nap, it's messing up his whole day as he is spending it just waiting for that nap, and if you get afternoon nap time wrong then you are starting a nasty OT game. So what you are doing NOW is perfect!!!

And, merely for reference if you are interested, what I did was to KEEP that morning nap at 930/940 right through until DS refused it at 14/15 months. I just kept cutting it shorter, but always kept it at the same time. Luxury of SAHM life was part of it, but I started getting my days REALLY routine....up, milk, dressed, bkfst, out for walk or play outside, etc. Back in the house, into pyjamas, books and nap.  The set nap worked SO well for my DS, and keeping the day in a very sorted order helped him know what was coming next.  He kept his nap from 145/200 to 4ish for a while, and when it started getting to only a 1.5 hour nap consistently (so a few days in a row, not a one-off) then I cut the morning to 30 minutes from 930-1000 and nap time moved up to 100.  Worked well for us!

Offline gavinsmum1

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Re: Another episode of 2-1 transition.....please help-10 months
« Reply #25 on: December 03, 2009, 02:43:07 am »

We have an ongoing battle in our house, DH wakes and needs to go to the bathroom at 5am ish and always wakes DS when he gets up.  But he insists that he heard DS waking and that is what woke HIM up in the first place...chicken and egg.  ::)

So well put!! I am still smiling here!  :)


Offline greenteamomma

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Re: Another episode of 2-1 transition.....please help-10 months
« Reply #26 on: December 03, 2009, 15:07:40 pm »
hahah, love the bit about the bathroom.  I am the one waking and have learned to wait.  When DH gets up, once in a while, I just grab his arm and say no no, you hold it too!  It's become a bit of an ongoing joke.....I tell him its sacrifice lol....but yes, LO wakes if you "go" at that time.
I agree that the morning might be hormones.  He's always done this, since I can remember (like he's so old lol).  But seriously I think it's just his "way".  I thought I'd mention it in case.  I have also read about he hormones at this time of day etc.  
It really helped with everything you've told me and you've really guided me Mashi. thanks again!  I look back a at some of my problems and they all stem back to starting too agressively the 2-1 or forgetting to look at the big picture.  :)  

Question:  If he's having his 40-45 min nap but the pm nap is now 1.5 instead of his usual 2, what do you do?
      
« Last Edit: December 03, 2009, 20:24:16 pm by greenteamomma »


Offline dez2502

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Re: Another episode of 2-1 transition.....please help-10 months
« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2009, 05:45:18 am »
Mashimaro - I have to commend you for taking so much time to respond in such a detailed and warm manner. I'm experiencing some similar issues with my 10.5 month old son, and did my best to follow this thread to see if  it answered my questions. It definitely addressed some, but I actually would love to hear your feedback on what to do next.

My LO is a spirited/angel baby. He used to STTN and would take two 1.5-2 hour naps per day...up until about 3 weeks ago. We returned from a trip to a different time zone (we travel a lot) and this time he didn't bounce back to our time zone. Our naps copmletely derailed, and he starting NW. In an effort to keep it short/simple, here's where we are today.

wake - 5am (he wakes at 5am and babbles or cries intermittently. I usually don't get him until 6/6:30...unless he's "really" crying)
a.m. nap - 9:45/10:00 - 11:30/12:00 (he finally started taking his morning nap again, but is going longer than usual...almost 2 hours or longer most days recently)
p.m. nap - most days, he refuses this with tears. I try to bf to winddown, read, rock...everything, but he just won't settle and freaks out crying when I put him in his crib. After 1+ hours of trying, I usually abandon the nap. but then, he's whiney the rest of the day until bed time.
bed - I wind him down at 6:30 and he's asleep by 7/7:15.

So, I'm not sure if I should shorten the morning nap, and wake him. I feel like he's so OT and needs to take naps at whatever length he needs just to catch up. I've tried waking him up after an hour to preserve the pm naps...but then he won't go down for the pm nap. Today was the first time he took an afternoon nap for me in 5+ days. But, it was only one hour.

Anohter issue is that i do bf before each nap...it's part of our winddown and usually works. He's not a baby that gives in to rocking, reading, and gentle play before sleep. he's too wound up and active. if I nurse him, it's a quick way to calm him down. he never falls asleep on the breast, but gets nice and drowsy and calm. i need ot break that habit too...and am wondering if now is the time to try and break that habit while i'm dealing with a revised nap schedule.

Offline annette.xx

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Re: Another episode of 2-1 transition.....please help-10 months
« Reply #28 on: December 07, 2009, 15:30:28 pm »
well ladies...

im still well into the 2;1 club....and its got messy for me!! a NIGHTMARE!! EW everyday, am nap refusal, pm nap refusal...etc etc...ive used PU/PD to get the naps and have managed to still get some kind of naps but I know I need to sort this out and soon!!

Jasmine is teething so im riding it out and doing the best I can! she is 10 months and has 8 teeth! 1 popped out just this morning! shes had 4 within the last 8 days ...poor thing...and poor mummy!! :'(

yep im in agreement about uncutting that nap now - just decided today actually!! I have been getting MAJOR pm nap refusal everytime i do 45 min am nap so abandoned the idea but looking at your routine greenteamomma has made me think maybe im not pushing that second A time out enough and what I assume is OT is actually UT!!...THE PLOT THICKENS!!

please keep this thread going ladies - its really helpful!

dez - Im sure you will get some great advice here! Im scared to offer advice right now cos im making a mess of my own at the moment!!! gosh this is soooo hard! hugs to you!

Annette.xx

Offline dez2502

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Re: Another episode of 2-1 transition.....please help-10 months
« Reply #29 on: December 07, 2009, 16:09:25 pm »
Hugs to you too Annette!!! We have to remember that everything with these adorable babies -- the good and the tough -- is a phase. They move so quickly through development, it's part of the ride we signed up for as parents. It keeps it fun and keeps us on our toes!

Though, I'm with you...I get terribly stressed (too stressed) when things are going well and I know he's tired and won't settle.

We'll hang in there.