Another episode of 2-1 transition.....please help-10 months

[Mashi]

Question:  If he's having his 40-45 min nap but the pm nap is now 1.5 instead of his usual 2, what do you do?

It depends.  What does the day/night look like now, with that 45m and 1.5 hour nap?

There are a few things, and the answer probably depends on what the day looks like.  It might be a case of adding 10-15 minutes onto the A time before his afternoon nap and see if he naps longer. It could also just be that he's getting enough sleep with those 45  + 1.5 naps - especially if his night is nice and long.  KWIM?

Mashimaro - I have to commend you for taking so much time to respond in such a detailed and warm manner. I'm experiencing some similar issues with my 10.5 month old son, and did my best to follow this thread to see if  it answered my questions. It definitely addressed some, but I actually would love to hear your feedback on what to do next.

I think you may have better luck if you start a new thread - possibly in the "Getting Back on Track" forum with this seeming to be the result of an overseas trip. Not that I am not willing to help out, of course I will chime in when I can, but I think that you will get more eyes on your thread that way and much more advice!  First thought is that after a 1.5-2 hour morning nap, he probably needs close to 3h45m or 4h before a catnap of 45 minutes....if you are trying too early then he may resist due to UT and then just continue that resistance well past when he IS tired.   And, post on the props or BFing board will get you more help with breaking the BFing as I have no experience with that.... sorry!!!

yep im in agreement about uncutting that nap now - just decided today actually!! I have been getting MAJOR pm nap refusal everytime i do 45 min am nap so abandoned the idea but looking at your routine greenteamomma has made me think maybe im not pushing that second A time out enough and what I assume is OT is actually UT!!...THE PLOT THICKENS!!

Annette.xx

Very likely Annette - there are days when I still can't suss out the difference between the two. Why not give it a shot tomorrow at pushing it out 10-15 minutes and see where it gets you?

[greenteamomma]

It depends.  What does the day/night look like now, with that 45m and 1.5 hour nap?

Lots has been going on these days but I am still doing the short am without cutting and still getting 1.5 and even 1 hr pm naps.  Yesterday was the first time I had to wake him from his pm nap, to preserve bed.  He has also been having 10.5 hr nights/EW about 5 times a week, just to give you an idea.  He's also pushing that last pm A time.  It takes him such a long time to settle in the evening and always ends up being just about 4 hrs.  I've tried to start earlier, but then I end up winding down for such a long time so I'm really starting to think he needs 4 hrs.  Even when he woke after 1 hr from the pm nap, we started really early with the wind down but he went to 4 hrs anyway. 
 
Now, since I posted the question, I don't know now if I even need him to sleep longer for the second nap, unless it might be the cause of the shorter nights.  I have been trying to put him down early for the first nap to get UT naps and an earlier wake from them.  I have had to wake him for most days.  This is what happens; he wakes at 20 mins and then it's like the cycle starts again.  Not every day but when it does happen, I've woken him after 50 mins.  I know I'm still trying to find a good fit for the nap so I'm taking it slow to draw conclusions, from your advice.  It seems to cause less problems and less OT.
This is our general 24 hrs:

Wakes frequently, cries out etc starting at 4:30 or 5:00 and usually wakes between 6:00 or 6:30
nap asleep between 9:30 and 9:50
Wake between 10:20 and 10:30
nap lately has been 2:00ish to 3:30 (I've only woken him once at 3:50)
bed routine after bath and bottle always starts around 6:50 or 7:00 (unless early wake from pm nap) and takes anywhere from 15 to 30 mins.  We usually just end up putting him in bed at 7:20 and let him figure it out.  He sometimes just makes sucking finger noises or sometimes he lets out a mantra and then we hear nothing.
I was thinking he was starting to figure out if he doesn't get drowsy we'll keep holding him but then I remembered that if I start too soon for his second nap he has the same behavior or goes down and then wakes after an hour which is UT.
Questions are: What might be causing the EW?  If he has a 40-45 min nap, I think he's ok with the 1.5 in the pm. What do you think?  But, does an hour nap in the pm mean UT, at least in the senario I described?  Does those 20 min wakes in the am mean anything or just forget about it and wake him?  Have you had enough of my questions yet?

Thanks again Mashi!       
 

[Mashi]

I know I'm still trying to find a good fit for the nap so I'm taking it slow to draw conclusions, from your advice.  It seems to cause less problems and less OT.

While this probably really seems frustrating NOW I think that when he hits 12, 13, 14 months and you are getting near one nap, you'll be glad you are able to figure him out!!

Questions are: What might be causing the EW?  If he has a 40-45 min nap, I think he's ok with the 1.5 in the pm. What do you think?  But, does an hour nap in the pm mean UT, at least in the senario I described?  Does those 20 min wakes in the am mean anything or just forget about it and wake him?  Have you had enough of my questions yet?

Thanks again Mashi!       
 

EWs at that age/time could be a lot of things....pain (he's a prime age for those teeth to start bothering him, even if you can't see anything), OT as it seems to be about 10 hours after he went to bed, or just things aren't perfect in his night time world -- too hot, too cold, snowplow went past his window, etc. 

I do agree that with the 45 minute morning nap that he's probably OK with the 1.5 hours in the PM.  But, it could be some OT that is causing that 4/5am wake. Only way to find that out is to attempt to make the afternoon nap longer and see if it works and solves things...but you could also end up making things worse.  KIWM?  Does he NEED you at 4/5am, or is it just a cry out and back to sleep?  It's possible he's not even awake...just a sleep cry. I woke my DS more than once by going to him at that time and realised that he wasn't awake - he still does it now sometimes, I go in and he's sound asleep but moaning or crying out in his sleep.

I think that in lengthening the afternoon nap, you will end up pushing the day later and that's not something you really want to do.  I don't think I would try cutting that morning nap any shorter -- if he is needing to be woken at 45 minutes, then waking him at 30 will be harder on him. I waited to cut to 30 minutes until my LO was used to waking on his own at 45 minutes, kwim?  I think that if it were ME, I would continue trying to get him down a bit earlier in the morning to make his morning nap UT and end a bit earlier...I know you are trying that, so nothing different than what you are doing, really.   I am not sure about the 20minute waking.  Looking at it on it's own (ie/ a 20min cry out and then back to sleep) sounds to me like OT....not 100% positive that is what it is though. But it does seem it.  Easy for me to suggest as it's been 7 years since I have had an Ontario winter....but any chance you could put him in the stroller and see if you can get him to sleep a bit earlier if you take him out for a walk?

The hour nap in the afternoon.....it seems to me like it's UT, especially because you said that it most often happens on days when you try to put him down a bit too early. 

Sorry if I am not much help???  I think you are doing really well though!!!

[greenteamomma]

His morning wakes USUALLY consist of crying out and falling back to sleep or never waking.  He rarely cries out in a way that makes me need to go see, I sit on the side of my bed ready and he always seems to calm down or stop. I'm finding more and more he's having a hard time to go back to sleep, the last few weeks.  This morning was not usual, he was definitely up (always hard to tell for how long) on and off several times from 4:45 to 5:45.  It also gets hard because WE get used to the noises and sleep through them....  He fell asleep for a while and then he fell asleep for quite some time.  My hubbies watch alarm went off at 6:45 since he had forgot to unset it when he was away on business.  That woke us up and we were whispering and he woke.  Not sure what its all about still either.  He does have molar bumps where the first ones should be but that's all.  And I noticed a canker sore on the other side, not sure about where that came from?  His rooms in the back, so no plow sounds (this morning was our first snow by the way).  The heat comes on all the time, not set at a certain time and it doesn't seem to bother him.  My hubby says stop analysing EVERYTHING. 
Could it be the "theory" of putting the baby down to early in the am causes some of the night sleep to detach and become the am nap?  Or is he too old for that?  Grasping at straws here....anyway, can't put him down later but just thinking out loud. 
I have continued to put him down earlier in the day for his am nap.  It works sometimes and sometimes not, I mean he goes down and sometimes it take several tries.  It's too cold to go push him around outside now.  Anyway, getting him dressed to go out is like torture for him.  He rarely cries except when he's getting dressed.  LOL 

[mirabels mom]

hi, ladies.  my LO is just shy of 10 months and having the same problems you all are having, so i thought i'd jump in and read the post.  my head is swimming!  LOL!

i go back and forth between wanting to intervene with her day sleep and just letting her do what she does.  it is confusing for sure.  she has ALWAYS been an 11h night and 3h day girl with her sleep.  now her night is 10-10.5h and day sleep is 2.5-3h.  she gets about 13-13.5h of sleep in a 24 hour period.  she used to get 14, so just a touch less these days.  she is a HAPPY girl, and goes to sleep well (when she isn't practicing sitting up from lying down, pulling up to standing, etc.).  i *know* that i have to cut her day sleep so it moves to the night but then she is crabby in the day and...

UGH!

anyway, my way of saying i know how you are all feeling and it is tough.