NWs and night bottles

[koe2moe]

First a brief summary of the current situation.  After many weeks of colds and flus and having 2 molars cutting through within a week, DS is almost back to eating the normal amount of solids during the day.  He was having 2 or so NWs but depending on how hungry he is, they can shift.  Usually around 11:45 and then need around 400ml or more of formula mixed with cow's milk (started diluting from Saturday night when he started to eat more during the day).  I tried to give less, and he would just fuss or if he could resettle, then he would wake again 20-30mins later with his hungry cries.  After he resettled finally, he would wake around between 5:10-6:10.  If he wakes at 6:10, then he's up for the day.

Typical day:
6:10-7:10  Wake up
12:30-2:30  Nap
7:15-7:45  Bedtime

Typical NWs:  11:45 and then 5:10-6:10  or 8:30 (probably due to teething) and then 3:45. 

Last night, I started W2S for the 11:45 wake.  It worked very well.  Because he didn't have his bottles before midnight, he woke last night at 3:45, the other usual NW time.  I gave him diluted bottles and he only took 280ml in total, which is great and resettled by 4:10.  This morning he woke at 7:10

Questions:
how many nights in a row should I keep doing W2S for the 11:45 NW?
would you do 2 W2S (meaning also for 3:45) all in one go?  Or should I tackle one at a time?
can anyone give me more suggestions to help getting rid of the night bottles?  The diluted bottles are giving tiny results, as he's taking less at 3:45.  Perhaps I can just stick with that for 3 days and then dilute further? 

Thanks in advance

[babybarr]

W2s you should do for 3 days.  I would stick to one and then once it's gone do the other.  i think if diluting the bottles is working then stick with diluting them further every few days.

HTH
Laura x

[koe2moe]

Thanks, Laura.  It's just nice to have some reassurance.  I'll keep at it.  Fingers crossed it will work!

:*

[babybarr]

No worries!  Keep me posted. Good luck.

[koe2moe]

Hey Laura,

The W2S still worked well.  And DS didn't wake or even stir at 3:30 but 5:10!!  It's amazing but he's really hungry.  I also don't know if 5:10 will be consistent.  Only time will tell. 

I'll keep at the third day of W2S and dilute the bottles further tonight.  Would you also dilute the bedtime bottle?  He woke at 8:10 for the day   Just that my silly body woke up at 4:10, wondering why I was awake at all but by the time, I was drifting off to sleep, DS started...argghhhh   

He might wake again at 3:30 tonight again, who knows, but from past experience is that when we diluted the bottle so much, then he would actually wake 1 hour later hungry  

I feel like I am in a rut.   

[babybarr]

Give him a snack at bedtime too.  I wouldn't dilute the bt btl.  Really if he's now feeding well during the day he doesn't *need* a feed in the night.  You may have to do wiwo instead until he gets used to not getting fed.  There was another toddler thread on this a little while ago and the mum went cold turkey, I'll see if I can find it for you.

[babybarr]

Hi
Here it is...

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=168349.0

Sorry I had to shoot off earlier my friend arrived!  Have a read of that thread it's quite interesting.

[koe2moe]

Laura, thanks for the link.  I'll read it through ASAP.  

We have to go out a bit with DS and probably will keep him up past bedtime tomorrow night.  Hopefully the hard work these last few days won't be wasted.  

My dilemma is if he wakes at 3:30, he will definitely go back to sleep and me, too.  If he wakes later, that's a 50/50 chance that he'll be up for the day.  wi/wo for going cold turkey, i will first read through the thread.  Knowing DS, he could just whine, on and off (like back to sleep for 5-10 mins and then wake and whine, cry, etc for 1-2 hours.  So wi/wo might not work for me right now as I'm still trying to recover from a very bad flu.  hmmm  Actually day time he's not feeding as well as possible.  He's just eating a bit more but not anywhere near his usual appetite.  Teething doesn't help either.  Hopefully the last molar will come through within this week.

[babybarr]

If everything is a bit "off" at the mo then I would just feed a diluted bottle at the early wake.  At least till you feel better.

[koe2moe]

Thanks, Laura.  It's just a vicious circle, isn't it?  I don't get enough rest, and I can't recover and then I can't try to fix this problem  

It's funny that DS always coughed a bit around 10:30-10:35.  So I actually was worried about waking him up fully when I started with W2S.  Tonight, he actually did his cough thing at 10:42!!!  I was worried but it went well.  He only rolled over and didn't even cry which he did last 2 nights.

About the offering a snack at bedtime.  We currently give DS dinner around 6 and then a bit of relaxing play time, bath, bottle and then to bed.  He has very strong association of sleep with the bottle.  I had a hard time when he was really ill with diarrhea to get him off milk.  I had to do wi/wo to get him to sleep and night time was co-sleeping with water and he did drink lots of water and was fine without bottles at night but not bedtime.  How can I introduce snack and I also worry about dental health.  We brush teeth just before he goes into his bath.  What would be some possible way to have bedtime snacks?

Also, this morning DS slept in till 8:10 and the night wasn't too interrupted.  I'm guessing it's the last molar.  AND he's super tired all morning and was really fussing from 11:10 onwards.  His A time became almost just over 3h and so I had to put him to bed early at 11:30 and he signed for milk.  He only slept 1h40 and he wouldn't have a second nap and bedtime was 7:40 because we were out.  I wonder if with teething, sleep training should be on hold?  He has very low fever also. 

Thanks so much again.

[babybarr]

Put it hold yes, he doesn't sound particularly well.  Will he take milk from a sippy cup?  Maybe that'd be a first step (at some point) to getting him off the btl?  I'm not sure about the snack - pop across to toddler eating and post something there, I expect you'll get lots of good ideas.

[koe2moe]

He does drink milk (cow's milk only) from sippy.  Would it make a difference to give it in a cup?  It's milk he wants, I think, not the bottle. 

Just a little update:  like i said we would be out tonight and it went way later than i had anticipated.  He was doing well, no meltdown at all.  He was having a ball actually.  He dozed off in the car for 5 mins or so and then we got home, changed him, put him in sleeping bag, and I put him to bed saying the same little things.  He just went down without a peep!  No bedtime bottle tonight. 

NW @ 2:20.  That was hunger.  So last few nights he was waking at all different times really really hungry, so I tend to think it's genuine hunger.  I just don't know how to up his calories during the day.  Or would it be good to add milk during the day?  If I put it in a cup, he will only sip 50-100ml or so.  He was up from 5:30 because he had a big bang on his head.  I gave him bottles again (bad bad me, i was too sleepy to think) and hoping that he might go back to sleep.  But he's up for the day but he had his nap at 9:45 instead of 12:30!  He slept his usual 2h and then another CN at 14:45!!  He's just yawning all day.  Not sure if it might be teething.  He's not really feverish but a bit on the warm side. 

We have a long weekend, so I can do more sleep training if DS isn't too unwell. 

Thank you so much

[babybarr]

He's probably tired from the late night so you do what you have to do!

Personally I wouldn't drop the bedtime bottle / milk but I really would start not giving the bottle in the night.  He really doesn't need it for food during the night at this age.  he may be *appearing* hungry due to having been fed previously in the night for a long while.  It's like if you eat at the same sort of time each day then your tummy rumbles at that time regardless - iyswim?

If you don't think he's ill then maybe you need to decide the best way to get him back to sleep without a bottle and we'll go from there, afterall you know your LO best and what may or may not work.

HTH a little!
Laura x

[koe2moe]

Thanks Laura again. 

He woke at 6:45 this morning.  7h45 he slept without a peep.  It's as if he woke at 3:45 if I put him to bed at 8pm.  I felt bad that I automatically went to get him bottles.   He's up for the day.  As he's tired from the short night sleep, he wanted his nap early again close to 11 but when I put him in his sleeping bag (i asked him if he wanted sleepy time and he just smiled to me), he signed for milk. 

It's a long weekend here, I guess I can write down a plan to try to sort it out.  I also happen to wake about 1h before he does!   Perhaps it's my little guardian angel waking me up to W2S for the new NW time?  Would you also think that W2S is worth a try first?  When it fails, I will give further diluted bottles.  Teething is definitely in the way! 

Just had a chat with DH about a plan (I'm not sure why I always have to check with him, I'm always the one to get up to fix this kind of problems )  Anyways... perhaps we'll do W2S at 2:45 (if he's awake, then wi/wo).  I'm just not sure when his NW will be.  3:45 or 5:30?  If he's up at 5:30, no bottles, he would just be awake.  So I might as well just get him up.  But if I do that, would I be encouraging him to have HW at 5:30? 

Do you know of cases when W2S can work more than an hour before the wake time? 

[babybarr]

Yes try W2S first.  worth a shot, you could try an earlier one - just be sure he actually wakes and then goes back to sleep again.

I would try givng a cup with milk rather than btl just to make sure it's not the bottle he wants.