18 month old sleep is all over the place

[danacarrie]

Thanks for reading my long message.

My 18 month old DD was a great sleeper until our vacation around the holidays.  Her routine used to be like this:
7am wake
1-2:15 or 2:30 nap
7pm sleep

She went down easily and sttn no problem (though there was often a brief NW around 11pm that she resettled herself).

Since the holiday, she was sick, seemed to have bad SA, got an infection, was on antibiotics, and is now healthy.  Once her fever broke, we had a few decent days (but not back to what it was).  In the last few days, things are bad again.  She is likely getting her molars so we have been medicating it at bedtime.

We have created a new normal for bedtime, including a longer winddown and continuing to talk to her as we leave the room.  She seems to like knowing we are nearby.  But her NW are impossible.  She often woke around 11pm-12am but was always able to go back to sleep on her own.  Now she wakes either every two hours, or sometimes sleeps for 4 hours and then is up.  Last night she was up at 11pm and cried (loudly) until 2am with us doing WI/WO (but I don't think we did it right).  Finally DH stayed with her until she fell back asleep, and then she slept the rest of the night.  Two nights ago we brought her into our bed after about 30 min of WI/WO, so she slept, but we didn't.

I am pretty sure she is very OT at this point but I don't know how to break the cycle.  She is napping fine at daycare (about 1.5 hours).  The nap is earlier than it used to be (12:30pm-2pm) and bedtime is still 7pm.  Its not realistic for us to move bedtime earlier on any kind of consistent basis, although we could try that.  She also refuses naps with us.  Yesterday she napped well (1pm-2:45pm) but it was in the car.

I am traumatized by the crying and DH and I don't agree on what to do.  I could really use any support. 

Thank you,
Dana

[B J]

Sorry to hear you're having such a rough time.  My DD is going through some SA right now too so we have decided to try GW as WI/WO just got him more upset.

Could your DD be waking due to teething pain?  Do you do a dream feed of the meds?

When my DD was teething badly or had a fever, we often had to do a dream feed or two of meds in the middle of the night.  We give Tylenol, so we either gave him a second dose after 6 hours or sometimes when it's really bad 2 doses 4 hours apart.

[babybarr]

Firstly some big ((((hugs))))

How long ago was it that she was poorly?  Waking very frequently can indicate pain - just wanted to check she is completely better.

Do you wake her from he nap or does she wake herself?

Do you know about gradual withdrawal at all?  At this stage this sounds like a better plan esp. as she seems to sleep better with you in the room.

[danacarrie]

Hi,

Well the day after I wrote, LO had some bad diarrhea, so we are thinking that her tummy may have been bugging her or teething might be causing the diarrhea.

That day went like this:
7am wake
12:30-2:30 nap (she almost never naps two hours, she clearly was catching up from the previous night).
6:55pm sleep (went down easily)
NW at 9:30pm, went back to sleep really easily with us talking to her from the other room
STTN

Yesterday:
6:45am wake
12:30-2pm nap (we don't wake her)
6:45pm teething meds
7pm sleep.  She protested but not for too long.  DH calmed her in her room and was able to leave before she was asleep, and kept talking to her for a few minutes.
11:30pm NW- DH talked to her from the other room, she went back to sleep
4:30am NW- resettled with talking by DH from other room.  Slept for about 15 minutes, and then was up again.
4:45am NW- couldn't resettle.  Gave more teething meds.  DH went in and talked to her for about 6-8 minutes and was able to leave.
7am wake in a good mood.

Any thoughts?  I am wondering if we should have given more meds at the 11:30 waking.  I am not sure about a dream-feed for meds- we did do a dreamfeed but I am so nervous that I will wake her!

Thanks,
D

[babybarr]

Yes it sounds like the meds *may* have helped if you'd done them at that time.  Teeth do mess things up BUT I think you and your DH have done brilliantly at getting her to go back to sleep just with your voice.

I would perhaps now cut down the amount you say to her so just choose a phrase and repeat if she makes any noise - e.g. go to sleep honey, it's nighttime.  No other interraction or conversation.

If you did a dreamfeed it's def worth a shot with the meds.  If you do wake her it's likely she won't be fully awake and will go back to sleep pretty quickly.  Use a torch

[danacarrie]

Thanks for the support.

Last night was all over the place. 

Gave meds at 6:30pm

She went to bed at 7pm pretty easily.

NW at 9:30pm.  She did not resettle particularly easily.  Gave gum soother, but no motrin (too soon)
Woke again at 10:15pm, resettled easily.
6am (I know this is considered an EW but for us its a NW!).  Very wet diaper.  Went back to sleep until 6:45am.

Woke up tired and a little grouchy.

I think you're right about closing in on the phrase, and starting to minimize the interactions.  Any other suggestions are welcome.

Dana

[danacarrie]

One other thing-
Apparently LO was up multiple times between 10pm and 6:00am.
I am wondering if she is scared of the dark?  She has a nightlight but maybe we need to leave a brighter light on?
I can't figure out these multiple NW.

[babybarr]

An EW is really only considered if the night sleep is under about 10hrs really.  So a 6am waking from a 7pm bedtime isn't *that* bad (although I know there were NWs too)

I think within a few days of less interraction and the meds she'll get there.  Frequent waking is a sign of discomfort - esp. if it's about every 45mins - 1.5hrs.  Do you think it's worth getting her double checked at the docs?

[danacarrie]

Well....
She had a great night last night.
EASY was like this yesterday:
6:45am wake (grouchy)
12-1:30pm nap
6:30pm gave meds
7pm went to sleep easily
10:30pm NW, but resettled very easily, almost entirely on her own.
6:55am wake in a great mood

So, now I am wondering if the frequent NW could be just being slightly UT so that when she naturally wakes, its hard to resettle herself. Generally her A times are 5.5 in the morning, then a 1.5 hour nap, and then a 5 hour A time, and then bedtime.  Yesterday it was 5.25 in the morning, a 1.5 hour nap, then a 5.5 hour A time.  She went to sleep easily and had a great night.  She also didn't need more meds in the night.

Any thoughts?

I appreciate the suggestion about the doctor.  Every time I decide to take her in, she has a decent night, so I have put it off.  Maybe the frequent NW are gas-related, and last night she just didn't have gas?

Anyway, I am having an optimistic moment!  Hooray!

Dana

[babybarr]

Anyway, I am having an optimistic moment!  Hooray!

It's truly amazing what a good night's sleep can do for your mood!

Yay for the great night.  You may very well be on to something and it's def worth a shot at slightly extended A times to see!

[danacarrie]

It is all so hit-or-miss!
The night after the great night, she had a not-great-night. 
Her day was like this:
6:55am wake
12:30-2pm nap
7pm tried to put to bed but would not settle.  Finally fell asleep at 7:40pm (independently).
Woke at 3:30am.  Would not resettle.  DH slept on her floor

The following day (yesterday) she was home with us:
7:15am woke
11:30am really tired in the car but I kept her up
12:30 attempted nap.  Wouldn't settle.  Was quiet for about 20 minutes from 1pm-1:20pm.
Finally at 2pm brought her to the couch, fell asleep with Dad for 1 hour.
7pm went to sleep easily and STTN!

Today:
7:15am wake
11:30am looking tired
11:45am attempted nap.  I knew it was early but I really wanted to see if maybe we were just WAY off.
12:20pm still not settled.  I lay down on her floor.  She fell asleep at 12:40pm and is still sleeping (its 1:45 now).

So, I have two questions:
Why is it all over the place?
Why will she nap no problem at daycare but on the weekends, we hardly ever get a nap without a ton of work?

Thanks,
D

[babybarr]

I don't know the answer to either question unfortunately!  But I notice she sleeps better with one of you around - I suspect at daycare there is a carer who sits with them while they sleep.

If she sleeps well at night i.e. 11.5hrs then I would push that morning A time a tad more.  At 18mths they do tend to go through a wonky patch so it may just be that.

[danacarrie]

Hi, thanks for the response.
The nap yesterday lasted until 2:25pm, and nighttime was a mess. 
So, yesterday turned out like this:
7:15am wake
11:30am looking tired
11:45am attempted nap.  I knew it was early but I really wanted to see if maybe we were just WAY off.
12:20pm still not settled.  I lay down on her floor.  She fell asleep at 12:40pm.
2:25pm wake
7pm attempted sleep, no luck.  Tons of crying.  Took a long time to settle, even with me right next to her, with whimpering every minute or so.  Finally settled at 8:10pm.
Woke at 9:50pm and was pretty much up until 11:15pm.  She was so tired, kept falling over, falling asleep but then waking herself up.
Two other brief nightwakings.
7:15am woke this morning.

I am pretty sure she was overtired and/or overstimulated (she had a very busy afternoon) and we should have put her down earlier last night, but she gave us no signals and she almost never goes to bed earlier than 7pm, plus she had a solid nap.

My new plan is to stick to a time schedule:
5:45pm dinner
6:10 bath
6:35 pjs and winddown
6:55pm lights out.

What do you think?

Also, FYI, the daycare person doesn't sit with her.  I think its just that she doesn't try to manipulate daycare!

Thanks,
D

[babybarr]

I would say she was probably UT at bedtime due to a great nap!

I would try a noon nap afetr th 7.15am wake (cos of dodgy night)

I like your bedtime "schedule" def helps to have rough times.

[danacarrie]

I was wondering about UT also, but I am so hesitant to make bedtime any later in case its a bad night (because then she doesn't go to sleep until so late). 

I was thinking that if nap ends before 2pm, bedtime should be at 7, and if its later than that, adjust accordingly.  So, maybe go off A times, basically do 5.5 in the morning and 5 in the afternoon.