Low sleep needs babies

[~Emma~]

 How do you genuinally know that your kid is low sleep needs?

[scucci1979]

LOL Emma. I was thinking of this yesterday.
 I think Alyssa is as her naps are normally 1hr and 20-30min. The norm today is 1hr and 20min. We sometimes get 2hrs naps(rarely). DD1 would nap 2hours in the am and 2hours in the pm.  Oh yeah, she can handle 3.5hrs like a breeze.

[elf]

From another book I've read on sleep, it actually has definitions on low sleep needs, average sleep needs and high sleep needs babies.  It gives some good info on different strategies for the individual needs.  From memory, as I've lent my book to a friend, at around 6 months low sleep needs average around 13.5 hours - 14.5 hours sleep in 24 hours, average sleep needs babies sleep 14.5 hours - 15.5 hours and high sleep needs sleep 15.5 hours - 16 + hours.  So an example of a low sleep needs baby would do for example, a good morning nap but struggle to take the afternoon nap, a typical nap length for an average sleep needs baby is 1.15/1.20 mins long and the high needs babies will do those lovely big naps.  You can have 'low average' or 'high average', so I would describe my son as average sleep needs but more on the high side iykwim?  Low sleep needs babies will more often than not need to move to a very short am nap followed by a big lunchtime sleep and need the longer afternoon before bed.  They should still be able to sleep a night sleep of 7pm - 6am/6.30am (generally a 12 hour night could potentially steal their short am nap and lunch nap).  Because they are not the classic 'sleepyheads' they are generally quite active and energy burning and often they can 'tire' around 8.45am/9am so it is tempting to put them down for a big nap and then struggle with any other naps.  So a good routine for them is often to put them down at this time and only give them a very quick 'power nap' then up again for morning tea (depending on age this will be milk or fruit) as their energy burning playtime is often between 9.30am - 11am - then lunch/solids at around 11.30am and in bed at 12pm for a big nap.  Then afternoon tea (agin, this could be milk or fruit, depending on age), dinner around 5pm so they can burn off more energy before the usual bath/breastfeed or bottle and bed at 7pm.  If you have a low sleep needs baby they are the ones that naps can steal from night sleep so big afternoon naps can mean difficulty settling to night sleep, big morning naps can mean EW's, and big morning naps and pm nap refusal can mean OT at bedtime but generally a quick morning nap followed by the lunch nap is very much suited to them.  HTH

[KathrynK]

Alex is low sleep needs. I worked it out by looking at the amount of A time he could handle, rather than by how much he slept.
So for example, he started doing 45 mins naps. So I extended his A time by 10 mins. Still 45 min nap. Extended his A time by another 10 mins. More 45 min naps. Extend by another 30 mins then he started sleeping 1.5hrs again, hooray!
I actually remember starting a thread on babies with massively long first A times when he was about 5mo, because I couldn't believe how long he needed awake!

[scucci1979]

Agree. Alyssa will be 8months and she can easily handle 3hrs and 45min of A time.

[clairebear79]

Interesting.  If he's not OT (which is very rare these days) Oliver can handle 3hrs 30mins A time & he is almost 8 months.  Where does that put him on the spectrum - is that average for his age?

[~Emma~]

 Intersesting stuff elf.I can remember you chiming in on one of my previous threads and suggesting a short am nap followed by a long pm nap. It never worked at the time but has ( touch wood) for the last 2 days. I've been waking her at 45 mins then she's been doing a 2 hour nap between 12-2 then bed at 6/6.30pm. The problem previously had been that she was taking an awesome morning nap from which I often had to wake her from at 2 hours then wouldn't go down AT ALL in the afternoon. She is OT waking in the early part of the night though but easily (ish) settled again.

 I think she truly is low sleep needs. She can do some monster A's and always has been able to.

[~Sarah~]

I am still in denial that Bean is low sleep needs.  She has only taken a handful of 2hr naps since she was 4mo and 3out of the 5 have been in recent wks.
She has had no problem with 1.5 total day sleep since about 9.5mo.  It is not every day but most dayst
She does sleep 12-13hrs everynight though.
I have yet to figure out a consistant A time for her that will produce a decent nap!

[Kay Dee]

Elf, you've just described my DD! Shes 9 months and averages 13hours sleep in 24. Is doing well on a short AM and longer PM nap at the moment and we're getting 11-11.5 at night. Definitely low sleep needs, but so was my DS, he was on 1 nap at 9 months

[jackman]

So just curious for those who have low sleep needs bubs and are on one nap, how long did you let your lo sleep for their one nap? Did you have long NWs that lasted 2-3hrs if they slept for 2.5hrs during the day? What was their A time to BT after their one nap for the day? My DS is low sleep needs I assume as what elf described was also us to a T.

[Kay Dee]

jackman, with my DS I had to wake him from his nap if I wanted to keep a 12hour night. He went to 1 nap at 9/10 months and it was 2 hours initially at 12/12.30pm with bedtime at 7. Every time we got NW or EW (for a few days in a row) I'd lop 15mins off the start of the nap and after a few days he'd go back to sleeping through. He would often resist bedtime or nap time when it needed cutting too.

From 12-15months it seemed like I was shortening the nap every other week so by 15months the nap was only 1hr/1hr 15mins but then it pretty much stayed at that until he dropped it around 27months. I always moved the nap later as it got shorter so that A time to bed wasn't too long so he would generally be up from his nap between 2-2.30pm with bed at 7-7.30pm.

And, yes, we would definitely have had baaaad NW if I let him sleep as long as he wanted during the day

HTH

[elf]

The main thing to remember is, some babies only need small amounts of sleep and that is fine - just means less Y time during the day!  But I've always been a believer that if the nights are good and my children are happy during the day, then there's no point hoping for longer sleep.  So yes a short am nap and a mid day nap can be absolutely fine for a low sleep needs child (much earlier than other bubs who do 2 big day naps) and yes, unfortunately, they will drop that early morning nap earlier than others and like PP said, the nap will get shorter and a nap of 1.20 mins is fine for a low sleep bub - it's 2 sleep cycles and that can be sufficient for some. - but that would be as they get older. Keep the night sleep as once naps go, that's what holds the days together.  A low sleep needs bub doesn't mean that they don't enjoy sleep, just that they need less to be happy - or they only have a 'set amount' of sleep in them so it's best to distribute it - and mostly it's best to have them do an 11 hour night (11.5/12 nights for some - but for others 7pm - 6am is a good night).  My daughter is low sleep needs,  but has always loved her sleep and needed it, but would only do a 'certain' amount.  That being said, she only just dropped her nap at 3.5 years but her total amount of sleep needed is on the lower side for her age.  I would love her to be doing 11 - 12 hour nights but I know that she will probably be a child who now will only do 10.5 hours (maybe slightly more) at night and be fine (she's almost 4) and as envious as I am of other Mums whose children her age will do 12 hour nights, I have to keep reminding myself that she is happy, and copes fine on the amount of sleep she gets.  A big sign for Low sleep needs babies that day sleep needs to be reduced is the playing in the cot in the middle of the night happily - so yes, that's normally a sign to somehow cut day sleep.

Emma - I would stick to the short am nap and lunch nap.  Once you're on that routine it's quite a good one for a low sleep needs bub.    Over time you may find that the mid day nap ends up being from 12.30 - 2.30pm and if the lunch nap gets shorter than 2 hours then it's probably best to cut the morning nap first to 30 minutes, then 20 minutes (over time) as a shorter mid day nap will make her OT by bed.  It's quite common that low sleep needs bubs need to up from their nap by 2.30pm fora 7pm bedtime  - but not all, so it's about experimenting with things.   But that would be awhile off.  I had a friend who had a low sleep needs child and she kept up a 20 minute am nap for ages and a 2 hour mid day/afternoon nap and once the am nap went, there ended up being a few days where she would offer it, but she always capped it at 20 minutes.  A good tip for waking from a short nap is to get to the child before s/he goes into the next sleep cycle.  So if they don't wake at 45 minutes on their own, then go in the room before 45 minutes so they don't go into the next sleep cycle as they can wake really groggy from it - as you've disturbed them and it can sometimes take another 40 minutes for them to 'wake up'.  If you end up doing a 20 minute nap when she gets older, then wake at 18 minutes - before they go into the 'deep sleep' as again, it is hard to wake them and they wake up much nicer and more refreshed if they don't go into the next sleep cycle...

[EloysH]

Elf I think I have read that same book. We are both Aussies and its an Australian author right?   I logged my Ds2 sleep for a week and averaged it by 7 days and kept coming up with 13-13.5 hours.  (I think that was the magic number for 6-12 month olds).  That put him at low sleep needs.   It really helped me get that straight, as it made his transitions easier to accept: - he transitioned  from 3-2 naps and then 2 to 1 early, and A times always been higher than others at the same age.     He was on one nap at 11 months.

[elf]

Yes Eloys, we are talking about the same book and it really helped me as well as both my children are average sleep needs but bordering on low sleep needs and the info on different sleep requirements helped me to stop comparing and stressing if I didn't get the big naps.  I read a few different books on sleep when my DS2 was born as he was quite different to my DD1 and I needed to stop comparing and expecting him to do the same routine as DD1.  My son did the classic yo yo between great naps one day to shorter naps the next and when I logged his sleep at 6 months he was always averaging 14 - 14.5.  Once I had him on 2 average naps of 1.20 mins and stopped expecting any longer than that things were much better as he tended to do the same thing each day and it just made him a less tired and happier child.

[scucci1979]

this makes perfect sense. DD1 was higher in sleep needs. She would sleep 15-16hours in a 24hour period. DD2 is averaging about 14hours in a 24hour period. her naps are about 1hr and 20min and I have come to accept them.However, what will work for us is the longer am nap and shorter pm nap as our mornings are very busy. I remember trying short am long pm nap for DD1 but that just put her in a bad OT cycle.  I am scared to try it for DD2 b/c I don't think she will give me a long pm nap.