Bottle question for 2wk5dy old--very gassy DD

[LarasMama]

Feel free to move if this is in the wrong place

I'm feeding my daughter, Lara, EBM as I wanted badly to BF however due to a latching issue and myself doubting my ability to feed her proper amounts, some would say she has gotten "nipple confusion". There's no confusion on Lara's behalf, she simply prefers the bottle lol. It doesn't hurt me one bit as I am happy enough to physically see how much she is getting, as well as knowing she is getting my breast milk at the same time.

I was using the Avent bottles with #1 nipple (the smallest size), and Lara was downing anywhere from 2-3oz a feeding in 5-10 minutes tops. However I noticed her having signs of gas pains after almost every feeding. She'd squinch up her face, go completely red, has a hard/bloated tummy, clench her fists, and grunt and groan. I've burped her over my shoulder, on my knee, tried laying her down but she paniced about that, and I've noticed I've had a hard time getting gas out of her. I've laid her down on her back and "bicycled" her little legs gently, rubbed her belly in clock-wise motion, I've had her over my shoulder and rubbed her left side with the heel of my palm, and sometimes I'd get a burp/fart out of her, but not consistantly.

I switched her bottle to a Nuk (the one you got with the Nestle Good Start diaper bag if anyone of you signed up for it) with a slow-flow nipple that is orthodontic. I'm not sure if the Avent nipple was just too fast flowing for her, but it's taking her 20-30mins to finish only 1.5oz with this new bottle, after which she falls asleep and doesn't take anymore. I do believe that is a much more appropriate amount of time to eat, so I'm not all that worried. I haven't fed her from the bottle enough to know if she is still getting her 2-3 hours of sleep (which I am keeping an eye on--we had a hard time getting her back to her Birth Weight and I was on a 2hr feeding schedule. I don't want a repeat of her loosing weight.). However, she still has bouts after every feeding of what I assume is gas pains. Only this time I have noticed that if I lay her out flat after getting burps out of her (which I am much more successful), she has a hard time falling asleep and wakes up crying/grunting. If I hold her upright until she falls asleep, she's fine. I adjusted her swing from a more laid-back position, to an upright one and that seems to be keeping her sleeping.

I've been reading the bottle thread that is sticky'd, and I'm wondering if perhaps I went out and bought a couple of either Dr.Brown or BornFree bottles (as both are available in Canadian BRU  may still help me out yet? I have a gift card that has under $25 on it, with nothing else to use it on, and I'd be more than eager if you ladies believed either or may help me out.

OR

Am I confusing this whole bottle-scenario with gas problems in general? Am I confusing with what I assume is gaspains with reflux? She is a frequent hiccuper...

[flutie]

We use the dr brown standard bottles and found them to help with the gas.  We use standard because  with the wide mouth nipples (avent and born free) he was breaking suction lots and getting lots of air...might be worth a try.

[LarasMama]

I tried a Playtex Ventaire Advanced (standard & wide) first and I must say I'm impressed. My DD doesn't look so uncomfortable after feedings. I also love that when you turn the bottle upside down, it does NOT drip a single drop. I think I'm switching bottles for sure.

Thanks for the suggestion, flutie. I may still grab a Dr.Brown to see if it helps even more.

[*Kara*]

I used the Avent bottles after we had huge gas issues with Playtex Drop ins... I have heard good things about the Ventaire though!  Wasn't a fan of the Dr Browns - pain in the arse to wash them

Could certainly be gas in general too... I found that we had no problems until about 3 weeks of age...

Or it could be something that you are eating...

[IzzyD's mom]

When you pump are you getting a good amount of the thicker creamier coloured hind milk as well as the more watery foremilk? How are you DDs BM's? If the answers are 'yes' and 'yellow without mucous' then you can probably rule out fore/hind milk imbalance and food intolerance. Also babies this young are often gassy just because of their new digestive system and posture. Hiccups may mean gas, or just that you LO has a full tummy.  Some times the grunting/ groaning etc is just them trying to figure out how to poop.... my dd used to go purple. Is she crying/ fussy?  Hope you manage to get some good burps soon 

[LarasMama]

I seem to be getting a good combination of fore milk and hind milk, and her bowel movements are yellows colour with mucous... but your questions make me want to experiment with something I have been doing. I'm currently using a single pump (looking at doubles now... totally worth the investment in time savings alone to me) and I've just been storing both breasts' expressed milk in the same container just to save space in my fridge. I'll try next pump to keep the milk separate and feed her that and see if that helps. I do make sure I shake the container really good before putting it in the bottle.

DD grunts and groans if you don't put her on your shoulder to burp her. As soon as she's up there, she seems to be a lot more content. I think part of the noises she makes is gas noise, don't get me wrong, but I've noticed even if she gives me good burps and I've waited 30mins or so to put her down, she still fusses about... a lot. And occasionally will spit up too (again, could be completely normal right?). Any horizontal position other than on her tummy seems to bother her, too. Even if you cradle her, if you don't have that magical angle she fusses, grunts and a groans. Again, maybe she just doesn't like it. Our next GP appointment is the 11th, and I'll make sure I make mention of my observations of Lara.

I have been making use of the "bicycle" motion with the legs when I lay her down to change her diaper, and that seems to help her out a bit

[Lolly]

If she has mucous in her nappies and digestive discomfort I would be thinking about milk protien intolerance (MPI). Have a look here http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=210586.0 and see what you think - it would be worth speaking to her Dr about.

Laura

[*Kara*]

Mucous is a sign of MPI for sure...

[IzzyD's mom]

I wouldn't jump to that conclusion though - my DD sometimes had mucousy poops when she was that old and was gassy too  so I immediately cut dairy etc out of my diet. It was all for nothing- she has no allergies whatsoever and as soon as I had my supply under control her poops were fine. Did you mean to say they aren't mucousy? Or if they are , how frequently and to what degree would you say? I would definitely check out the link to see if your situation seems to fit.

Hope things are improving with the new bottles   

[LarasMama]

I checked out that link and it doesnt really fit our situation as I already do not consume dairy (the occasional yogurt and butter) or soy. I drink almond milk. However... would that matter?

They are occasionally mucousy, but not often and I wouldn't say terribly... it's almost more like little strands every now and then.

Everything else besides my very limited dealings with diary kinda fits. A couple days ago she had a few looser than normal stools, and I just assumed it was the hot chocolate I had drank, so I gave up my hot chocolate (and any chocolate for that matter). She was a pretty good every three hour eater, however we had some issues with weight gain so my GP (2 weeks ago...) had me feed DD every two hours, except for the night which I was supposed to just feed every 3. DD followed this very well. Since then her eating habits were a little off, but I tried to slowly push her to eat every 3 hours and actually had success with that. Its just been the last few days that it seems like I'm feeding her at some whacky hours. She'll have an ounce and a bit, spit the bottle out, have a what I'd call a gas-fit, go down to sleep and then in an hour later she'll eat another two ounces. I just kinda figured she's turning into a snacker... but at almost 4weeks, is that possible? Weight gain doesn't seem to be a tremendous problem, if anything I'd say she looks a little bloated. I have noticed that where she was almost a bowel movement after every feeding, she's no where near as frequent as she used to be.

I keep having this instinct that something is not right. I just can't figure it out.

Another thing, tummy pressure seems to help her a fair amount. If I'm not holding her tummy to tummy (or in the burp position) she's a lot more irritable. I have her laying on her stomach beside me on the couch right now, and she's actually sleeping soundly.

IDK... her doctors appointment is next week, however my OB-GYN appointment is this Friday, and our doctor's office is in the same building. I think I'll have a doctor or a nurse look at her then. I can't wait until next Thursday. I'm also wondering if the poor dear has an eye infection as her lower eye lid looks a bit swollen, and the eye is leaking yellowy-discharge which glues her eye shut. I had the doctor look at it at our last appointment and she said she thought it was fine and figured my diagnosis of a blocked duct was right. Which I'm positive at the time it was... it cleared up a few days later. This bout seems to be a lot more persistant, and a lot more gooey.


Ugh. I feel like such a bad mama.

[IzzyD's mom]

my dd had a blocked duct too- it went away when she was about 7 months old but would sometimes glue her eye shut in the morning. If it is swollen I would get it checked though. We were told to massage where her eye meets her nose although not sure if it made a difference. As for the 2 hour feeds- my paed told me to feed every 2 hours round the clock when DD was born for her first month... DD was 9lbs 14 at birth and 1 week later weighed in at 11lbs! This was before I read BWer and I now think this was a insane suggestion in our case.However, if you were seeing slow weight gain to start it is understandable in yours but at 4 weeks with good weight gain I would be looking to get your DD up to 3 hour feeds in the day with some cluster feeds in the evening.
At 1 month BMs reduce in frequency (sometimes they can go a week or more if breastfed). So long as when she does poop it is soft and a normal colour there is no need to worry.
Is your DD swaddled? Do you keep her on an angle when she sleeps? Does she have a paci? Even babies without reflux sometimes prefer to lie on an angle on their backs/ on their tummies. It is up to you to weigh up the risks vs benefits of tummy sleeping but for sure there is a discussion about it on here. 
Your DD sounds so much like mine.... and your worries sound exactly like mine when she was a newborn (minus the bottles). So are SOOOOOOOO not a bad mom

[MommyMoulton]

IS your LO sleeping in a crib or bassinet... My DS was quite gassy and difficult to burp. He was FF so I cant be much help in that department, but he had mild reflux. We found that patting his back aggrivated the reflux, so we just rubbed. We also elevated his crib with a few textbooks to give him that inclined sort of position, sleeping improved after that.
E was always more comfortable on his tummy at first too, and loved to be swaddled, cumberbun style, but I was too fearfull to allow him to sleep on his tummy at night, for naps I would allow it because I could check on him all the time.

Good luck. HUGS too... your not a bad mum...we all did/(are still) feeling that way.

[*Kara*]

Just a reminder that we recommend back sleeping as it is a known way to reduce the risk of SIDS.

[LarasMama]

Lara isn't swaddled as she loves to soothe with her hands, I tried with a swaddle bag and she didn't care for it all to much. I should try swaddling her with a receiving blanket so she can have at least one hand. As for a pacifier, I've tried giving her it but she always makes a face as if I've given her rat poison, suckles on it for a few sucks then spits it out. I try every now and then to see if she'll take it and I get the same reaction.

Night time sleeping, as horrified as all of you will be, I co-sleep with her with no one else (not even poor DH, but its for Lara's safety as he sleeps like the dead...). I have her either laying on her side, with me curled up around her protectively, or her sleeping on my chest with myself on an incline. Nap times I flip her around from side, to back to the other side, to tummy. She sleeps much better tummy down, or on her right side.

This morning she completely refused the Avent bottles... she'd drink 1/2oz and make a gag sound then spit it out. Every time. So I got my Ventaire(standard nipple, not wide) and she drank happily almost 3 ozs. Today is an all new and exciting pattern that has me concerned some more. She's only eating an ounce before spitting the bottle out and refusing to take more every 2 hours sometimes every hour (Ventaire wide). She moans, groans, grunts, cries and writhes about for what seems like forever even if I get a burp out of her, and then she falls asleep practically upright in my arms. At this age, is it possible she has me trained already? DH seems to think so... :S

I'm getting at my wits end with this. I carry her upright as long as possible in my ring sling, but I'm pumping so I have to take her off.

When a baby gulps air what does that sound like? I'm wondering if maybe she's gulping tonnes of air with the wide nipple... I haven't tried a standard nipple since this morning. Maybe I will next feeding. And I'm going to start keeping a journal of what I'm eating, but I'm not so sure it's that as these kinds of episodes happen after every, single, feeding.

Uhh... getting at my wits end. BUT a positive, her eye's cleared up so I'm not so fretful of that.

[IzzyD's mom]

Not horrified AT ALL... I co slept with both of my LOs until they were 6 weeks or so and with DS my Dh was in another room. My DD often would only sleep on my chest when she was a couple of weeks old and with DS and multiple night feeds it was just easier.

I would give swaddling another go as at this age they dont have a great deal of control over their arms and the swaddle keeps them nice and cuddled in.

At such a young age babies dont really manipulate and she is still very young. How are you gauging how much to feed her from the bottle? Are you just pumping as much as you can or are you following guidelines? How often are you feeding her in the day?

She may prefer incline and right side as this helps keep food in her tummy and reduces reflux issues.

good to hear her eye is better