Author Topic: HELP!!! 5 Month Old Waking 5-6 times a night!!!!  (Read 4007 times)

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Offline mmjones

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HELP!!! 5 Month Old Waking 5-6 times a night!!!!
« on: February 01, 2012, 00:19:52 am »
Hi All,

My name is Monique and I'm new to the boards.  I read the Baby Whisperer book about 1.5 months ago and the hubby and I ceded to implement the pu/pd method when we started sleep training our son.  Here's a little back ground info:  Our son (Brady) will be 5 months old on Friday (he is actually 21 weeks old right now); he is fed by combination of breast milk and formula (sometimes breast milk is directly from breast and sometimes from bottle) and he drinks 8 oz from bottle or feeds for approx 25 to 30 minutes total from both breasts when breast fed; he has been on a 4 hour routine since he was about 8 weeks old at the direction of his pediatrician where is eats every 4 hours.  Prior to January 2012, Brady's routine was:
Wake - 6:30
Eat - 6:30
Activity (Swing and Diaper Change and Dressed) - 7- 7:45
Then to Day care at about 8
Nap - about 2-3.5 hours between 8:30 and Noon
Eat - Between 12 and 1
Activity - playtime at daycare
nap - 2-3 hours between 2 and 4:30 (all naps at daycare were taken in the swing and swaddled)
Eat - 4:30/5
activity -- playtime at daycare
Nap - 30-45 min between 5 and 5:45 pm -- then I picked him up
Eat -- 7:30/8 -- then bedtime routine (sometimes bath, story, pi's)
Bed - 8/8:30; he'd sleep (in his own room) anywhere from 4 to 6 hours during the first stretch the wake between 1 and 2 a.m. for a night time feeding and stay up for total of 1.5 hours (from start of feed) then sleep till 4:30 when he'd toss turn and break out of the swaddle, I'd reswaddle then he's sleep till about 5:20 when I'd go in a bring him into our room and he'd seep till 6:30 on my chest. NOTE:  all naps taken at home on the weekends were either in my arms unswaddled or in the swing swaddled but those were the ONLY ways he would nap, at night he slept in his crib swaddled but we had to rock/bounce/hug him into a deep sleep before putting him down.  he also uses a pacifier but before sleep training he didn't rely on it so heavily.

At his 4 month doctor's appointment on January 5 his pediatrician instructed us to wean him off of the night time feed because he is 15 lbs 6 oz and doesn't "need" to eat at night.  So the hubby and I started sleep training using the baby whisperer method.  We have been doing the method since January 7, 2012.  At the same time I lost my job so Brady began staying at home with me full time.  His routine since 1/7/12 has been:
Awake -- 6:15 a.m. (he stirs at 5:30ish but I try to make him go back to sleep till 6:15/6:30) - sleeps in his crib
Eat -- 6:30
Activity -- 7-7:45 watch tv with me, bounce around, etc.
Nap #1 -- I watch his cues, so i put him down for his naps when he starts yawning or rubbing his eyes, which is usually 1 hr and 15 min after eating and he naps 2 - 2.5 hours -- he usually doesn't wake during this nap
Eat -- 10:15
Activity
Nap #2 -- 11:15/11:30 and he sleep about 2 o 2.5 hours - wakes once to be reswaddled
Eat -- 3:15/3:30
Nap #3 - 4:30/5:00 -- sleeps for 30 min to and hour then wakes and plays till we start bedtime routine
He's supposed to eat at 7:30 or so so we start his bedtime routine of bath (every other night), pjs, feed then story at 6:45 then put him down in his crib swaddled and awake but really tired.  I sing to him and sit with my hand on his chest and he generally falls asleep within 15 minutes with paci in mouth which he spits out when he falls into deep sleep but if it comes out before he's all the way sleep he will wake and I have to put it back in sometime several times till he's deep sleep.  he then sleeps till about 11 p.m. when he's broken the swaddle and I go in and reswaddle, put paci in and he goes back to sleep right away, up again at 12:30/1 a.m. broken out of swaddle -- go in and reswaddle and put paci in and he's back down within 5-10 mins; up again about 2 wide awake though droopy eyes and obviously sleepy but up talking and kicking his legs and arching his back -- one of us goes in and reswaddles (he's broken the swaddle) and puts paci back in and sings to him and puts hand on chest but he stays awake for AT LEAST an hour -- no crying usually, just staring and fighting sleep if we are in the room, if he doesn't see us anymore he starts to cry; I usually sleep on his floor during this time till he goes back to sleep around 3:30 (deep sleep) and I stay on his floor reswaddling him when I see him breaking the swaddle or putting the paci back in his mouth when he wakes and starts to cry and I stay in there till about 5 sometimes.  He doesn't require a feed anymore during the night -- at least he's not acting hungry when he wakes, just playful.

I am at my wits end!!! He's waking more now since we started sleep training then before we started it!  He still has a very strong startle reflex so I think we have to continue swaddling him but he wakes up EVERY SINGLE TIME he breaks the swaddle!!! I don't know where to go from here?  Maybe he's not ready to sleep through the night or be sleep trained but now we can't go back to the way things were.  Am I doomed to have no sleep forever???? On the plus side, he does sleep in his own crib for all naps and at night and we can put him down awake without rocking him to sleep and we don't have to feed him during the night anymore.  The bad side: he wakes way more often, we still have to sing to him or put a firm hand on the chest for him to go to sleep and he's staying awake for way too long during the night.

Please help!!! I've re-read the book over and over and find no help for my situation.  What do I do?  I tried to put him down yesterday for all naps and at night with just one arm swaddled and it was a total disaster for which I paid for at night because he woke every hour after the first 3 hour stretch and this time he was screaming crying each time.  Usually when he wakes from naps or for the day he talks to himself and coos and doesn't start crying unless take too long coming in.

Offline ZacsMumme

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Re: HELP!!! 5 Month Old Waking 5-6 times a night!!!!
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2012, 01:20:35 am »
Hi Monique, welcome

First, around 4 months LOs tend to 'wake up' they also change the way they sleep in that they start to cycle in and out of the stages of sleep more like adults, and partially rouse thought the night. I when they do this, they have pain, are hungry, or need a prop to fall back to sleep they will call/cry.

I understand your ped suggesting weaning all NF. However a lot of Bf babies still have NF or at least a DF past 4-5 months. Do you feel your LO is genuinely hungry at any of the NW?

This is a common age where the dummy also be ones a prop. They can't put it back in when it falls out at night. You can either wean the dummy/paci or be ready to replug through the night until your LO can do it himself. For us Z could replug by 6-7 months with some practice during the day ;)

I also am thinking your LO may be getting too much day sleep for a 5 month old. Have you tried capping the first 2 naps at 2hrs and the Cn to 30 mins and bringing the day forward accordingly?

« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 07:57:47 am by ZacsMumme »
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Offline heidiruthie

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Re: HELP!!! 5 Month Old Waking 5-6 times a night!!!!
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2012, 02:29:55 am »
hi, i don't have much advice since i've got a ton of NW's going on right now with my own LO, but just wanted to give you a suggestion about the swaddle. all 3 of my babes were super into the swaddle and i kept them swaddled for as long as i could. one thing that i began doing once they broke free of the swaddle, was i would double swaddle them. this is especially great for the winter months, just be sure that their room is cool enough so they don't over heat. i also use a special brand of swaddle that velcro's shut and makes it more difficult for LO's to break free. the brand i use is called swaddleme, but i'm sure there are others that would work just as well. i order mine online and use 2 and there's no breaking free! hope you find some relief soon, i'm in the same boat re. sleep deprivation....((hugs))

~heidi
-heidi






Offline mmjones

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Re: HELP!!! 5 Month Old Waking 5-6 times a night!!!!
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2012, 20:09:06 pm »
Thanks sooo much for your advice ladies!  Since posting this I checked out a few other posts and decided to try to increase my lo's activity time during the day as he was only staying up a total of about an hour 15 minutes before he'd start giving me sleepy cues.  For the past 3-4 days I've been trying to stretch that time with a goal of making it to 2 hours awake before going down for a nap.  I also stopped swaddling him after calling his pediatrician and telling him whats been going on and though his ped is VERY pro swaddle, he suggested that I try to wean him and see if that works.  His ped also said that I should "keep doing what you are doing" but if I feel that feeding lo during the night is the only thing that will work then to do it because its all "behavioral" and the lo is doing what he wants right now.

So, we've had some good days and some bad days (including today off to a really bad start) with the no swaddle.  FYI -- when we were swaddling him we were using two blankets at a time, we'd also tried the swaddle me but our lo is like superman and anything stretchy like that is easy business for him to break out of.  I didn't try using 2 swaddleme blankets at a time though...that's a thought.  To get him to sleep unsaddled I put two rolled up towels under his sheet and created a little valley for him to lay in and I lay him on his side (since that's how he kept rolling over to when swaddled) and make sure that his hands are touching the towels so he has some contact.  I also introduced 2 tbsps of rice cereal into his last bottle of the night (immediately before going to sleep) AND we've put him down at 8-8:30 for the past 4 days instead of 7-7:30.  STARTED UNSWADDLED SLEEPING 2/3/12 -- The results: he sleeps about 3.5 - 4 hours in the first stretch and we can put him down drowsy on his side and sing to him and he will go to sleep after playing with his paci for a few minutes (I am totally agreeing that this is a prop now but I thought that weaning from the swaddle first would be better -- should I have done the paci first????); he still wakes up very frequently during the night as his arms and legs flail around but I've seen him put himself back to sleep during some of those night wakings and other times I have to go in, reposition him (as he has almost always rolled onto his back and scooted up towards the top of the crib) and put paci back in and he closes his eyes but I found that he never goes back into a "deep" sleep for the rest of the night, he always seems to be fidgeting and having a fitful sleep unlike during the first stretch.  

And just last night, he decided to stay up for about 40 minutes (hasn't done that in about a week) and the only way I could get him back to sleep for a long stretch was to fed him.  I am wondering now if the constant night wakings after the first stretch aren't related to him wanting to eat -- i'm not sure if he's "actually" hungry but I can believe that he "wants" to eat and because of that he can't go back into a deep sleep...???? So last night I fed him at 4 am and he slept till 6:15 (we usually get up around this time) and when he woke up I saw on the monitor that he'd turned onto his back and had repositioned his hands and was trying to go back to sleep but he'd startle and wake up. I wanted him to sleep longer so I went in and repositioned and put in paci and he wasn't having it -- it was all fun and games time so I went in and picked him up to bring him into our room where he'd sleep on my chest (this is what we used to do back in Nov/Dec) and he went back to sleep till 8:15.  He ate and only managed to stay up for another 1hr 45 min before showing me signs of sleepiness so I tried to put him down for a nap in his crib -- OH MY LORD -- he cried and cried and cried and pu/pd just made it worse, he wouldn't take the paci, he didn't want to be on his side, he didn't want to be on his back though his eyes closed twice while on his back and it seemed like he was going to sleep them his arms would jet out and he'd wake up, i put him on his tummy and he just stared at the video monitor camera then started to cry, then I moved him to the other end of the crib so he couldn't see the camera and he started laughing and joking and playing with his paci so I left him in there and went to shower and get dressed as it had already been 30 minutes into this process.  He started crying the minute I walked out of room and I let him cry for 25 minutes while I showered and dressed -- when I went into the room he was vertical (I'd laid him down horizontally) and at the far end of the crib with his head in the corner screaming bloody murder!!!!!  I picked him up and he wouldn't stop crying and huffing and was livid.  I had to hold him for like 5 to 10 minutes before he'd even stop crying and I had to give him his paci too and no sooner then he calmed down -- he went to sleep immediately after while still in my arms.  So I waited 5 minutes then put him down in his crib where he has been asleep now for 1 hour 8 minutes.  

I am so at my wits end that I am almost ready to let him CIO even though I don't believe in doing that because I wouldn't want someone to let me just cry and cry.  But the fact that we've been doing the bw method for over a month now and I'm in a worse position then before we started the training has me exhausted.  And the fact that he has to go down a "certain way" every time he takes a nap or goes to sleep is a hinderance for us when we need babysitters because I don't know how he's gonna react at someone else's house and not in his crib.

I guess I'm just looking for a little encouragement that this too shall pass.  I wonder if we start feeding him again will it help? Any suggestions on the paci/swaddle issue?  Should I start trying to wean the paci too even though we haven't fully finished with the swaddle weaning?  I'm so confused! lol!

Offline amayzie

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Re: HELP!!! 5 Month Old Waking 5-6 times a night!!!!
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2012, 09:25:15 am »
HUGS!! 5 months is a really hard period!! Short naps, night waking all over the shop A times- and muck it up by sometimes even 5 minutes and the naps are crazy!! My guy was just the same- it can be such a trick trying to work it all out!!

It sounds like the crying when he went down at 1hr 45 mins is because he wasn't tired enough. I find my guy would look like he was tired, but babies sort of get into the habit of going to sleep at a certain time. You need to continue to extend that A time until you get a time that suits him, gets him going to sleep easily and doing a long enough nap.

When they have a short A time (too short for their needs), then a short nap- we call it the Undertired/overtired loop (UT/OT).  So basically- he is not tired enough for the first nap, will only do a short nap and then is Overtired for the next nap... This is fixed by stretching the A time. Also- what can happen, if you put them down undertired, they cry as you described, and then miss their 'window'- becoming Over tired!! Crazy!

The early waking is also not enough A time as you said- so pushing it up will help that also.

Here's a link on the A time extending:

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64158.0

Also- I know it can be infuriating when they cry and you've done nothing but your best, and followed all the rules- but it's a good idea not to let them cry for any longer than it takes for you to work out if they are going to settle, or escalate further. I like to count to 40-60 seconds as I can get all the information i need in that time. - if you can work it out in less, then do it for less. If you are really frustrated and worried you'll loose it with your LO, then by all means step out of the room and leave him in the cot- but only so that you can calm down- perhaps get a glass of water. Usually babies cry for a reason- it's all they can do! At 5 months they really don't have the mental skills to keep track of time, any anount of extended crying is really scary for them, and should really be avoided. Here;s a link talking about it.

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=222260.0 (Dangers of CIO)

Stick with it!! It will get better- let me know if you have other questions about any of this!
Katy, Mummy to Hamish!


Offline *Kara*

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Re: HELP!!! 5 Month Old Waking 5-6 times a night!!!!
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2012, 21:40:49 pm »
Hi hun,

You are in one of the hardest times for sure... I did controlled crying out of desperation at 5.5 months, so I can honestly say that I know how you feel. 

I can also give you my story so you don't make the same mistakes that I did.  If you need to, please PM me to chat.

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=211289.0



Offline Bex09

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Re: HELP!!! 5 Month Old Waking 5-6 times a night!!!!
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2012, 21:53:16 pm »
Hugs for the hard time at the minute hun. Totally agree with the comments of the other ladies here and please take their advice and don't leave your LO to CIO again. There are so many more gentle ways to help your LO to sleep and also you need to get to the bottom of why your LO is NW and see if we can solve that for you. Hang in there, things will get better I promise.



Offline mmjones

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Re: HELP!!! 5 Month Old Waking 5-6 times a night!!!!
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2012, 00:32:24 am »
Hi All!!! Thanks again for the advice.  We've decided to revamp the routine.  I recently got the "Baby Whisperer Solves All Your Problems" and have found more informative information and direction in that book than in the first one. Before getting the new book I started feeding him again during the night (only for 3 days) and it didn't seem to have an effect on his nw's.  So after I got the book I decided to take a step back and re-evaluate his routine.  I have made a few changes, 1) we've switched to bottle feeding him for all meals (combo of breast milk and formula which is what he's been on since 3 months anyway while he was on daycare) -- this way I can be sure he's getting enough to eat during the day since my bm supply is really dwindling; 2) we are eliminating the pacifier as he has become dependent on it to go to sleep and put himself back to sleep; 3) we are going to continue with the swaddle weaning but I'm going to use the swaddleme to confine his legs with arms still out and 4) i'm going to introduce the dream feed (or at least try).  We are totally starting from scratch.  Today was day 1.  Its been a trying day full of crying and puffy eyes for my lo but I've been right there with him all the way and staying strong and reassuring for him.  He woke at 5:30 a.m. and I did pu/pd to get him back to sleep till 7 (which is what Tracy suggests) then I got him up and fed him at 7, kept him up for another 30 minutes then put him down for a nap which took 30 minutes or so before he feel asleep (I will say that I shush/pat him more than I pick him up); he only slept for 40 minutes and I spent the next 1 hr 48 minutes trying to get him to sleep again then he slept for another 48 minutes; I got him up to eat and we played around and he even let me eat lunch :-)  then I put him down for a nap for which it only took 4 minutes of shush/pat to get him to sleep (though he did cry and fiercely rub his eyes) but he went down relatively easy; he slept for a FULL 2 HOURS!!! Yippee!!! He work a couple times and put himself back to sleep!!! I had to wake him up for his feeding (per Tracy's instructions to keep him on routine) and now he's happily playing.  He'll go down for his catnap soon.  Let's hope that goes well and I'm on duty tonight too.  I will keep you posted on how this goes.  We are dedicating a full 2 weeks to this new process with high hopes!!!! Keep my in your thoughts ladies!!! Need the good vibes and encouragement!

Offline *Kara*

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Re: HELP!!! 5 Month Old Waking 5-6 times a night!!!!
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2012, 04:09:04 am »
I fully expect to see a fantastic update in less than 2 weeks hun.. stay consistent and he will adjust quite quickly :)

Happy whispering (and sleeping)... be sure to enjoy your Y time!



Offline amayzie

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Re: HELP!!! 5 Month Old Waking 5-6 times a night!!!!
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2012, 06:24:01 am »
WOW!! Great job!! Putting the 2 weeks aside and really focusing the time will really help!! I can't wait to see an update! 30 minutes crying to 4 minutes is pretty good!!
Katy, Mummy to Hamish!


Offline ZacsMumme

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Re: HELP!!! 5 Month Old Waking 5-6 times a night!!!!
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2012, 08:36:03 am »
:-* good luck, let us know how you are going :)
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Offline Bex09

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Re: HELP!!! 5 Month Old Waking 5-6 times a night!!!!
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2012, 19:54:21 pm »
Fantastic update hun! :) Stick with it and it will all work out. Here to hold your hand.



Offline amayzie

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Re: HELP!!! 5 Month Old Waking 5-6 times a night!!!!
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2012, 21:22:48 pm »
Katy, Mummy to Hamish!


Offline mmjones

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Re: HELP!!! 5 Month Old Waking 5-6 times a night!!!!
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2012, 18:38:16 pm »
UPDATE TIME:
 
So its been what, 3 weeks.  DS is sleeping between 8 and 10.5 hours a night (depending on when we put him down). He sometimes wakes but puts himself back to sleep without us having to intervene.  He's pacifier free now and has learned to suck his thumb :-) DS has been consistently sleeping through the night for about a week and a 1/2 now.  DH and I are finally getting some sleep :-)

On the flip side, once he started sleeping longer at night his naps started getting wonky and erratic.  They are different every day.  He still needs 3 but it used to be that he'd take 2 naps at 2.5 hours in length each and then a cat nap of about 30 to 45 minutes late in the day.  Now, his first nap of the day is anywhere from 30 minutes to an hour and I can't really get a longer one out of him.  I try to give him 10 minutes or so before I intervene because he's very good at putting himself back to sleep when he's still sleepy if you just leave him be, but when it goes past that time or it seems that he's having trouble getting back to sleep I go in a do shush pat.  This just seems to tick him off.  He will be 6 months in 2 days and it seems that the books were right in that shush pat just riles him up more.  I also do pu pd which just gets him going more too.  As of late, he doesn't really like our intervention in the sleep department.  We just put him down in his crib, awake but sleep, and he falls asleep within 5 minutes -- 10 max, so when I come in and try to extend his naps I fear it only makes him farther away from going to sleep and we do the dance for the next hour or so till its time to eat.  His naps now are more like this:

Nap 1: 30 to 60 min
Nap 2: 45 min to and hour and a 1/2 but then he's still sleepy when he wakes and wants to go back to sleep
Nap 3: hour to 1.5 hours then we have to wake him because by then its 6:30 p.m. and we've been putting him to bed around 8 - 8:30

Also, when we restarted the process a few weeks ago, I introduced the dream feed which we hadn't been doing before.  On a few occasions, he went to be so late (because we'd been out or something) that he didn't get the dream feed but still slept through the night.  DH and I would LOVE to stop dream feeding DS as neither of us usually stay up that late (10 - 11 p.m.).  So last night I intentionally didn't dream feed him and he woke at 11:05 tossing and turning but put himself back to sleep.  He did the same thing again at 5 a.m. and then again at 6 but kept putting himself back to sleep until he ultimately woke up at 6:50.  I think i'm going to stop dream feeding as he was only taking 3 to 4 oz during the dream feed anyway and now he's back to drinking 8 to 8.5 oz per bottle during the day.

How am I doing ladies?  Any suggestions on the nap tip or should I just be happy with how things are since I get to rest at night?

Offline Bex09

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Re: HELP!!! 5 Month Old Waking 5-6 times a night!!!!
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2012, 20:52:54 pm »
Wow! Fantastic update hun, well done. :) So glad that your nights are going so well.

As for naps, what A times is your DS on now? I wonder if it is time to drop the CN now that he is 6 mo and getting better night sleep. Do you want to post your current EASY for us to take a look at?