13 mo sleep disaster

[brazylia]

My 13 mo DS has been having different problems with naps and night sleep on and off since beginning of Dec. I just wanted to ask what you think as I'm lost now what to do...
Is he either transitioning to 1 nap, really painfully teething or is it SA or a tangle of OT/UT or perhaps a mixture of all???

His molars are coming now but I'm giving him medicine at night, sometimes even before BT and before day nap and it doesn't seem to make all that difference... (switch to diff med? Nurofen now)

Unfortunatelly, I can't say he is on a routine now, as it's impossible with numerous NWs... I tried early first nap, capped, early second nap, he refused the morning nap a few times too, so only had a midday nap (but always short...), early BT, later BT, yesterday he even had 3 naps of 20-30min (as he fell asleep in the car at 4.30pm...). I really think I do what I can but to no avail... He falls asleep on his own in his cot (or pushchair) for the naps(well, me or DH present... so can it be that we are the prop???) and sleeps around 30min before waking crying (I used to wake him from the morning nap after 40-45 min but last few days he manages only 25-35min...). Then, after about 3h from morning nap I put him down for supposedly longer nap (but lately it's also only 30 min, sometimes he resettles with our help for another 30 min... but that's it!) We never let him cry alone for more than 10 min so I don't know if he can settle himself (he can't at night...).
He goes nicely for the night too (in the cot after BF) and wakes consistetly around 11 pm (used to be a cry out, but now he needs to be attended to, when we reassure him he lies down and goes back to sleep) last couple of days I give him pain relief at this point. Then another 1-3 NWs and EW around 5-6 am. I don't BF before 6-6.30 no matter what and we don't bring him to our bedroom.

If anyone has the patience to read all the above please share your thoughts as I am really desperate...
I can only explain him with the teething... as it gives me hope it will pass...

Thanks!

[Kay Dee]

Hiya, I know it's difficult if he's a bit all over the place but it would help if you could post a typical day in EAS format showing what A times you're putting him down for naps at. It's likely the start of the 2-1 but it'll be hard to extend his A times when he's tired from the NW. Have you tried extending naps when he short naps? What was his routine like before it went wonky?

Sorry for all the questions!!

[brazylia]

DS EASY is something like:

WO about 6.30 (but lately lots of EW 4.30-6) and BF
A time
S about 9-10 (depending on WO time and DS clues) I used to wake him after 40-45 min but
lunch
S about 1-2pm (usu 1:30h sometimes woke up after 30 min and I PD)

5 pm dinner
6 pm bath and BF
asleep by 7 pm (usually earlier)

If he wakes early from his second nap I comfort him and he goes to sleep and sometimes sleeps only for another 30 min and wakes up crying.

Yesterday after a terrible NWs night I let him sleep as long as he wanted in the morning, so EASY looked like:

WO 6 and cry
S 10:40
WTS at 11:05 and he slept till 12:05 (a recent record)
lunch, walk (he can walk nicely by now)
fell asleep in the pushchair 3:15pm - 3:45pm (had to woke him for a playdate)

asleep by 6:50pm

NW: 9pm, 0-1:15am (gave pain relief for teeth), 2am, 3am, EW 5:45, cried till 6:15 and went silent till 7 (I didn't check if he was awake), at 7:10 I walked in and he was playing in the crib! (a real start for me...)

I will try to repeat yesterday's routine today and see what comes out of it...

What do you think?

[*Becky*]

Hugs...have you tried the nurofen now? I always found that best for teeth.

It is likely that the molars are causing some problems. My DS went through a very bad sleep patch when his molars came in.

I would imagine the teething is combined with some OT right now and IMO we should stick with 2 naps for now.

How do you settle him for NWings? Does he have a lovey?
I would give meds at bedtime. Sometimes by the time they wake from pain it can be quite bad yk? A bit like us with period pain. If you catch it early it can be ok but wait until it is really hurting and it can take a while to ease off.

How has today been?

[Smurfette]

(((Hugs!!)))
I went through something similar around the same age and all I can say is stay with 2 naps as long as you can!

If you're having many NWs and EWs, I wouldn't cap the naps right now. I'd let him sleep at least an hour (providing he does take a longer nap) so that he can catch up on some sleep.

How do you decide when to give him that first nap? Is it based on A times or cues or time?
How long does it take for him to fall asleep?

I found that an early bedtime would help during the weeks when I was only getting 2x30  min naps. It can take days, depending on the child, to get out of the OT rut, so consistency (as best as you can control) is really important.

If you are going to one nap, then I would for sure do an early bedtime between 6-6:30 and offer a 2nd nap every 4-5 days, but my recommendation is to stick with 2 naps until you're sure that he's ready to switch.

Hugs again! You're going through a really rough patch right now but it will get better!
Hang in there!!!

[brazylia]

Hi! Thank you thank you for the support!

I am giving nurofen now but bought panadol to try out.
So you think I should not cap the first nap and head for earlier second nap? He used to be on two 1h naps till the troubles started.
For NWs as soon as me or DH comes to his room he immediately lies down and falls asleep now, and I'm afraid we became a prop
He has a blankie but no lovey, he trows all the fluffies away from the cot.

I had so high hopes for today, but... went like this:
WO 6 (cried a bit and then went silent for about 30min)
6:40 BF
8 breakfast (and started sleepy signs in his highchair)
9:20 S (20 min in cot, he sat up and lie down a few times, me next to the cot) slept 40 min
10 WO (sleepy signs around 11)
12 lunch, teeth
12:40 S (also after a few minutes in the cot)
WTS 13:05 (I've been trying it out for the past 3 days to extend his naps, as he used to wake after 30min, it works)
13:40 WO and grizzled I walked in, comforted and he fell asleep after 10 min but ONLY for 10 min
14:05-14:30 WE stayed in his darkened room, me hoping that he will fall asleep (rubbing eyes, rolling in the cot, cuddling blankie) but he finally stood up happy and fresh
4:30 dinner
5:10 bath (as I decided he need an EBT)
5:40 BF and asleep by 6pm

I went out but DH sais he woke up at 7 and 8 pm (fell alseep on him walking in his bedroom), than woke up at 9pm and when I walked in and gave panadol and (maybe wrongly!) decided to try WI/WO the tantrum started with him yelling "daddy, daddy!" which was like a knife in my heart... (he's a hell of a daddy's boy and we're also woried about this... maybe DS has SA of DH?) after 30 min I caved in and stayed with him, stroking and whispering, then I hide behind the cot and just whisper if he stands us to check if I'm there... so it was 10 min ago when I left his room... I dread this night so much.
Why is he doing this?? Still OT?

How do I decide on the first nap? Well, if he's had many NWs it's usually 3-3:40h after WO but also the cues... Sometimes he doesn't seem tired and goes down nicely and other times he hugs my knees or blankets and puts his head to the side but then sleeps 30 min (OT?)
But I also don't know when to give the second nap? Set time from first nap? How long?
He usually falls alseep in 20min in the cot (sometimes 5 if I read to him first on my lap)

Do you think I should stick to this routine with EBT for a few days to fight the OT? And what if he does even earlier WO?

His both lower molars are almost out, but the upper will follow soon, right?

I really appreciate all your support, as I'm not getting much of it down here...

[Smurfette]

I don't have much time to read over everything and others may disagree with me, but I would sooner see you try and stretch out your A times a bit more than anything else right now.
What was happening with the 2X 1 hour naps? IE what problems were you having then,  if any? Did you ever try moving the nap later to see if that improved things?

I'll be back later to read over everything in depth. HUGS!

[Smurfette]

Ok, I'm back with some more questions...

Do you have a consistent wind down routine for both naps and bedtime?
When he wakes up at 6 am and then goes quiet-is he sleeping during this time or is he up?
Has he ever been an independent sleeper, ie did he ever fall asleep without you or DH in the room?
How much day sleep is he getting, on average would you say?
What personality type is he?

It seems from the info I have at this point, that you have two issues that we can help you with-routine/naps and Nws/falling asleep independently. Do you agree or am I off the mark?
If it were me, I'd would treat them seperately as to not become overwhelmed with everything all at once.
So you need to ask yourself-what is the more pressing issue right now-his daytime routine or the night wakings. Which ever one you want to work on first, come up with a plan or idea of how you want to proceed and try it out for 4-5 days consistently to see if any patterns emerge.

Let me know what you think.

[brazylia]

Hi! Thanks for the reply. I guess sticking to two naps is the only option...
I think we need to sort the night wakings first as it affects me and DH the most but I realise it's connected with falling asleep with me/DH in the room (although I try GW, I hide out of his sight and try reasurring just with my voice).

Your questions:
Do you have a consistent wind down routine for both naps and bedtime?
For nap 1 - reading, for nap 2 - brushing teeth, nappy, reading, for BT - bath, BF and put down in his cot awake

When he wakes up at 6 am and then goes quiet-is he sleeping during this time or is he up? I can't tell without walking in his room, if I don't hear him babling I assume he's asleep.

Has he ever been an independent sleeper, ie did he ever fall asleep without you or DH in the room? Sadly NO

How much day sleep is he getting, on average would you say? Last couple of weeks it's 1,5h - 2h max

What personality type is he? I'd say textbook but overlaping with touchy sometimes.

Last night he slept through from 11pm after a cry-out when I tried readjusting his weird position and till 6:40am!!  First time in 2 weeks! Couldn't believe it in the morning (maybe EBT worked?) So today went like this:

WO 6:40
S 10-10:25 (woke up screaming, I couldn't resettle)
A
S 13:15 (WTS 13:40) - 14:15 (cried a bit and couldn't get him to sleep anymore)
A playdate
S 6:50 pm (aimed for EBT but since he woke up 6:40am and had a playdate I thought maybe not so bad... but he seemed sleepy from 4pm...)

Sometimes DS seems like he needs 3 short naps... how to consolidate it? Even with WTS he slept only 1h... Is his A time too short? What do you think?
Will update in the morning about the NW, hope not too many.

Thanks!

[Smurfette]

Congrats on the good night!

S 10-10:25 (woke up screaming, I couldn't resettle)

Hmm, that would seem like OT to me, but he had a good night. Does he usually wake up like this? You said he's teething right now? Do you medicate before naps?

Ok, so if you want to tackle the falling asleep/NWs first with GW, then you and DH need to formulate a step by step or night by night plan and implement it during a time when you can commit to it. It can take quite a while for some babies. Have you seen the links on here regarding it?

I'll see if I can find them and post.

Here...

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=80750.0
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=63896.0
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=52857.msg1845495#msg1845495

[brazylia]

I just checked today and DS is definitely teething all 4 molars - lower are almost out but the upper are coming through...
He screamed his head off after 30 min of afternoon nap and I did give him panadol before the nap...
So again his total day sleep was 3x30 min naps but he's been sleeping for the night now for over 2h peacefully. Last night he woke only around midnight and 30 min after I left him. Slept till 6:40am.

I decided on GW and am sort of doing it with sitting away from his cot now but will continue when he stops teething.

Thanks a lot!

[Smurfette]

Poor little guy.
How far in advance of the nap did you give him meds? I'm not sure what Panadol is, but I know Tylenol can sometime take up to 45 mins to kick in.

When he wakes up crying like that from a nap, does he calm down as soon as you come in the room?

[brazylia]

Hi!

Panadol includes mostly paracetamol and I gave it 30 min before the second nap yesterday and he woke up 30min after falling asleep and didn't calm down for 20 min (yelling, bending backwards and away in my arms, pushing me away) when he calm down a bit a put him down and he fell asleep for another 30 min.

The first nap yesteday though - no pain meds, he woke up after 30 min crying, when I walked in he calmed down and just played and babbled in the cot, he didn't see me, I sat next to the wall, so maybe UT? I stayed to check if he would fall back asleep but didn't and took him out after 40min (he yawned now and then, lied down and sat up, stood up to check a few times if I'm still there)

Last night was OK - he fell asleep at 7pm, cried out shortly around 10pm, NW at 2.30 am gave pain med and he was lying awake for 40-60min (didn't see me) when I didn't hear him stir or vocalize (twice) I left the room.

After he woke up at around 6.30 am and cried out a bit he babbled in his cot for almost 30 min at which point I walked in to BF, he already had pooped (that's really often) so I can't leave him for longer.

I will try to medicate way before the naps and see what happens. Also we sleep over at our friends' today so am curious how he makes through the night

have a nice day!

[Smurfette]

So what did yesterday's Easy look like?

[brazylia]

Hi, sorry I didn't reply, I was away.

So Friday went like this:
WO 6:35
S 10:15-10:40 (cry, then played for 40min, me in the room)
A
S 14:30-15 (big screams for 20min, probably pain despite meds before the nap)
S 15:30-15:55 and woke up crying
A
S 19
cry out at 10pm and awake 2:30-3:30

Saturday:

WO 6:30
A
S 10:50-11:40
swimming lesson
S 15:15-16 woke up happy
A
S 19:15 at a friends' house, so new place, noise, 2,5 year old boy running around, thought he wouldn't sleep well but
 NO NW he STTN first time in long time slept till 6:30 am Sunday

Will see what happens tonight b/c he slept only 30 min during the day, didn't fall asleep in the car, refused nap at home so we're heading for EBT.