Could my 9m old silly o'clock parties be a result of OT?? NEED HELP!!!!

[HenaV]

Hey Ladies,

My DD will be 9m in 5days time. We made the transition from 3-2 prompted by my LO's regulary 1am cot parties. We upped the A times and got rid of what was by then a 20m CN. My LO then got poorly and was sleeping 2 x 2h naps in the day & 11.5h-12h at night with 3h A times. Woohoo I hear you say, and then she got well and her naps were all over the place with frequent NW and cot parties.

Well HUGE thanks to Kara in Naps - we managed to get her naps on track. But I am still having problems with her waking at silly o'clock for a chat for sometimes up to 1h! I have tinkererd with her A times and I can't seem to get it right to put an end to the NW. On top of that, the last few days, she seems to be regressing re: her A times and getting tired ridiculously early - sometimes as early as 1.5h after she last woke. Our EASY looks something like this

6/6.30  - W/up
7am - 7oz
8.30 - b/fast

Nap 1 - 3.5h after waking for 1.5-2h depending on what time she went down. I usually have to wake her even after 2h and do so by 11.30am to fit out day in. I have found over the last couple of days, she is struggling with a 3.5h A time

11.30 - 7oz
1pm - lunch (sometimes too tired to be bothered, esp if she's only had 1.5h for Nap 1)

Nap 2 - 3h after waking usually for 1.5h - quite often wakes self. Over the last couple of days has struggled to do 3h A time. I had to reduce it to 2.5h yesterday as the day before that she was horribly OT and I had to put her to sleep - practically unheard of.

4pm - 7oz
5.30 - Dinner
6.15 - bath & BT routine
7pm - 7oz
7.30 - BT (or 3.5h after last WU). Again she seems to be struggling to make the 3h30m A time and I have had to reduce it to 3h20m to avoid OT BT.

I am at my wits end re: how to fix the NW issue and now it feels it is impacting on the DTS as DD seems constantly tired and ready for bed just a couple of hours after last WU. Have I got us in an OT cycle? If so, any ideas as to how to fix it? If not, any ideas as to what the casue is? I am all out of ideas and to be frank, shattered. She doesn't need help to get back to sleep in the night, but I am lying there listening to her chatter, desperately willing her o go back to sleep (with DH snring beside me completely oblivious!!). Oh, she has also taken to shuffling her way around the cot when she wakes at night - I sometimes have to go in and rescue her when she get's 'stuck', but on the whole she just chats, has a dance and goes back to sleep.

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE CAN SOMEONE HELP... so very tired and starting to feel desperate!

Thanks in advance

HV

[LouiseV]

Oh honey you poor thing. I hope you get lots of good advice ASAP

Why don't you try adding some loud, rumbly white noise? Thats awesome that she can get herself back off to sleep - but not fun for you!!

When you make a change, stick with it for a few days to really see the impact it will have. You could try shortening her first A time down to 3 hours (do it in 15min increments) over a week and see how that goes...?

You could also try a Safe-t-sleep for awhile if you think her moving around the cot wakes her up more. Some people dont like them, but if she is already self-settling and happy it could be enough to hold her in place (lightly) and help her resettle.

I found when my LO was waking like this he needed lots of sleep associations to remind him of what he was meant to be doing - thats where the white noise, a cuddly and the safe t sleep came in. I also had to check he was the right temperature by using a sleep sack.

If its the same time every night you could try W2S?? Nudging her to start a new cycle before she usually wakes, while shes still in deep sleep??? Do you think its habitual?

[HenaV]

 Hey,

Thanks so much for your repsonse, advice and support. It's so hard to see the wood for the trees when your sooooooooo tired.

I haven't done the white noise thing becasue she can and does (eventually) settle herself to sleep - always has unless she's poorly or teething - so I'm a bit worried to start somthing that then becomes habit forming. Plus, I know when she's really tired, the hoover or hairdryer just make her cry?

With whatever I have tried, I have done what I can to keep it going for a few days to see if it works - unless it's just an absolute disaster e.g. the OT nap where she just screamed, screamed and screamed some more until I managed to get her off to sleep.

Oh, and I don't think it's habitual - I've been keeping notes of the WUs - and they are not at the same time everytime - the only pattern is that when she does wake it's either around the 1am or 3am mark.

I think also I have finally got the temp right for her - the UK weather is so all over the shop, that it was hard to know which sleeping bag to put her in / what temp her room was best at - but she seems to sleep well with her room at around 21/22degrees and in a 1.5tog sleeping bag.

Oh what haven't you tried I hear you say!!!

BUT I do have some good news to report... DD SSTN last night with a momentary WU at 3am - I say that she could just have been taling in her sleep, it was so brief, and then she woke herself at 6.30am... woohoo!!! So my plan is to stick to what we did yesterday for a few days and see how that pans out. Namely a 3h A time from WU to nap. Nap 1=2h and Nap 2 =1.5h and A time of 3h15/20 before BT.

I just wasn't sure if a 3h A time was a bit low for her given she's nearly 9m (the sample routines suggest the av A time for 9m old is 3.5h)? But I guess is 3h is working.... we'll see.

Today, so far I put her to bed at 9.30am - she was out like a light and woke herself happily 1h50m later. So I will put her to bed at 2.20 (3h A time) and see what happens?

But please, if anyone has any thoughts or suggestions, please post them. I desperatley hope that this works, but given all of the tweaking I have done to no avail, I am not confident. So, If anyone thinks the problem maybe something else I am doing, please please shout!!

Thanks so much

H

[ZacsMumme]

How are you going Hun?

[HenaV]

Hey, thanks so much for checking in on us 

No great I'm afraid. That said, let's start with the good news. I'm pretty sure I've broken the OT cycle, yay!!  I did the 3h A times with a 2h & a 1.5h, and a little longer A time before BT and we had some momentary waking at silly o'clock, but nothing major. What we have achieve is rythmn again re: our routine, no OT and therefore sanity with a content baby.

BUT.... and this is where I feel it's a bit tricky and I'm not sure what to do next, we're back to 1h WU/cot parties - shuffling about and chatting at silly o'clock and at random times. Starting 3 nights back:

1. WU@3.15am - brief chat not awake for long & SSTN
2. WU@11.30pm-12.30am - chatting and 'dancing', had to 'rescue'@1.30am - rolled onto front&was stuck - straight back off & SSTN
3. WU@4.14am for 30m & went off. WU@6.10am for 10m & went back off

No 3 was last night. I think she UT at BT. So I am guessing the way forward is to increase her A times between naps. At the moment, it's 3h. Going on past experience if this is right, I will have to do it in 10m increments - anything more, she just gets OT.

That said, should I also allow her DTS to reduce - so if she's going to bed 10m later in the morning (9.40 instead of 9.30) shall i still wake her at 11.30?

I am worried if I don't & let her sleep too late, then the day get pushed too far out the other way (BT). Also I am wondering whether 3.5h sleep in the day is too much and leading to the UT at BT & NW?? I know, I am wondering alot at the moment. But, I have been perservering with the tweeking for about 5wks solid and I am sooooo tired. I've never had such bother with her routine, even when I have had to tweek before.

Bet you wished you hadn't asked, ha!!! So, all advice / help that can be offered would truely be GREATLY appreciated and HUGELY welcome.

Thanks so much,

H

[ZacsMumme]

You know what? I think you are bang on
I do think 3.5hrs day sleep at 9 months, with cot parties in the night do sound like UT at night and a need to cut back that day sleep. I would cap at 3hrs day sleep. Maybe cap one nap at 1hr and let her do 2 for the other, OR cap both at 1.5hrs? Capping 1 and letting her sleep for he other longer may be better for the 2-1 which you may find could hit in a few months.

SO with her A times, maybe try adding 15mins onto them then hold for 3- days if your LO gets OT easily. At this age we had a huge A times jump, like 30/45mins so keep an eye on her and you may find 15mins each A time is not enough and 1 of those A times needs to be longer.

Can you post EASY? Im guessing your day is a bit like this
WU 7
Nap 10-12
Nap 3-4.30
BT 7.30 ?? If so you can push your AM nap out to 10.15 and look at capping at 11.15 then go for a long PM nap at 2.15-4.15 (brought forward a bit with shorter AM nap) and BT at 7.30 still ...

[HenaV]

Thanks, it's reassuring to know I am on the right track. V.close with our EASY. Since I've straightened out the OT, a typical day looks something like this:

WU - 6.15/6.30

7am - 7oz
8.30am - B/fast
9.30-11am - Nap (A time 3h)

11.30 - 7oz
1pm - lunch
2.30-4pm - nap (A time 3h)

4pm - 7oz
5.30 - dinner (not usually that interested)
6.30 - bath & BT routine
7pm - 7oz
7.30 - BT (A time 3.5h)

Yesterday was a bit different because we had to go out. She's had woken a couple of times and so was tired earlier for 1st nap, so I put her to bed after 2.5h for a 1.5h nap (had to wake her). The 2nd nap was a little later because we were out (3h20m A time) for 1h40m. Total DTS: 3h20m. Then 3.5h A time before BT and she STTN, yay!! But that was just one day. I think I will stick to plan A, increasing the A time.

Any thoughts on how to work this EASY so as not to make DD OT, fit it all in and keep BT no later than 7.30pm?

Thanks,

H

[ZacsMumme]

I think your on track really, watching her but also watching the clock KWiM, giving longer naps to keep on top of OT but not too many or they will affect her nights. Eventually things will level out. I would definitely try to move her A time a touch longer, maybe for that middle A first so 3hrs first A, then 3hrs15 mins, then 3.5 hrs.

Any teething?

[HenaV]

Thanks... KWiM??? (sorry don't know that one).

Re: teething - yes she is cutting her 1st tooth, good days and bad days as you would expect really. Probably more tired on the bad days i'd say.


Ok, so do you mean leaving the 1st A time as it is for now (3h), and just extend the 2nd A time at 1st? What about how long I should let her sleep for Nap 1 then? I really don't want to push her day past 7.30pm if I can - DH is totally against her going to bed later than that, it just causes tension.

Thanks so much for your replies and support, it really helps 

[ZacsMumme]

KWIM = Know what I mean
Well maybe try PD at 3hrs and then offering a 1hr nap. However, if you are going to cap that nap at 1hr she may be more tired to take a PM nap after 3hrs as the nap isn't as restorative as 1.5hrs.
You have to do a bit of tweaking really to get the right time, and watching your LO but I would try a day like this if you want to keep your day length the same
WU 6.30
A 3hrs
Nap 9.30-10.30
A 3hrs - due to nap being capped - you may need to tweak this one
Nap 1.30-3.30
A 3.5 hrs
BT 7

What do you think? xx

[HenaV]

Yay, another SSTN with total DTS of 3h15m and an extension of A times!!!

Thanks for posting that EASY. My ony concern is when I last capped her AM nap to 1h it left her horribly OT for the rest of the day, even with a 2h nap in the PM. That said, I do think that is what I need to be working towards bearing in mind I will have to deal with the 2-1 transition soon!

What I was thinking so as not to cause OT (really worried about going back there having broken the cycle) was to increase the A time in the morning to 3h15m and cut the nap by 15m. Increase the A time again in the afternoon and let DD have 1.5h nap with a 3h30m A time before BT. So

WU - 6.15 (as it was this morning)
Nap 1 - 9.30 - 11.15

A time 3h 15m

Nap 2- 2.30-4pm

BT - 7.30

I thought if I do that and gradually cut back the AM nap to get that to be a 1h nap - it may eliminate the OT? ie 3days and hold for 3days as you suggested. It would also get us back to a 7pm BT as per your suggested EASY which would be great - what do you think? H x

[ZacsMumme]

My ony concern is when I last capped her AM nap to 1h it left her horribly OT for the rest of the day, even with a 2h nap in the PM. That said, I do think that is what I need to be working towards bearing in mind I will have to deal with the 2-1 transition soon!

Well you could try 2 X 1.5hr naps - with a longer A in between, OR
shorten that A after her 1hr nap a bit. SOme LOs can handle less than others on shorter naps.

What I was thinking so as not to cause OT (really worried about going back there having broken the cycle) was to increase the A time in the morning to 3h15m and cut the nap by 15m. Increase the A time again in the afternoon and let DD have 1.5h nap with a 3h30m A time before BT. So

- And yes that would also work!

I thought if I do that and gradually cut back the AM nap to get that to be a 1h nap - it may eliminate the OT?

sounds good...is your LO touchy with sleep at all? If so this is def the best way to go x

[HenaV]

is your LO touchy with sleep at all

I think she is. I would say that she is tpically textbook cross angel (tho we all probably like to think that!!!) But when it comes to her sleep, I think she maybe a tad touchy. e.g. when trying to increase her A times in the past, I have always had to work at ot gradually with her - 10m increments. I did think that maybe a textbook trait - like what they know, but perhaps it is more touchy?

Anyway, day 3 of increasing A time between the naps to 3h15m and cutting 15m from the AM nap. All was going well re: napping (not OT) and STTN for 3nights with not an inkling of a cot party. We've cracked it I thought and then last night happended.... a 1h plus CP!!

I have noticed over the last 2 evenings DD is taking longer to go off at BT (20m as opposed to a typical 3-5m), and so I wondered if she was UT. The 1st evening it happened, she SSTN, but last night it didn't.

Now I don't really know how to approach the next stage. That is, I was going to do 3 days of the change (which was yesterday) and then hold for 3days a(the original plan). I thought holding for 3days was a great suggestion to stop any issues re: OT - but I am not sure whether I should cut that AM nap by another 15m now, so she has 2 1.5h naps? and see if that fixes it. Or should I take the plunge and try the 1h AM nap with 2h PM nap? AARRGGHH!!!

It feels like everytime i feel like I'm getting somewhere, I take a step back. And I know that they change the rules all the time, but every few days really?

As you can probably tell, I'm really quite confussed as to what to do right now, so any thoughts, guidance etc would be greatly appreciated!!

On a positive note, at least I have been able to bank 3nights sleep, yay!!

[ZacsMumme]

she is tpically textbook cross angel (tho we all probably like to think that!!!)

lol I wish my boy had a bit of either of them! I have a spirited/touchy...its hard work

Well touchy sleepers get OT with changes in routine when made too quick - even if it is what they need, so changes need to be made gradually. Others can cope with larger and quicker jumps to get to where you want to be KWIM?

Okay so what was your EASY the last 2 days (If you can remember) including the CP NW time.

The CP/BT settling could be UT or OT...but Im tempted to say if anything it is UT given your gradual move and CP prior to the change. It is a typical age for big A time increases. TBH I wouldnt cap that nap anymore yet...I would first try an extra 10mins A before BT

HUGS x

[HenaV]

I have a spirited/touchy...its hard work

... bless you, hard work but bet he's adorable!

Right our EASY for the last 2days:

Day 1:
Cry out@4.40am but other to that SSTN - woke self@6.15pm (was put to bed night before at 7.25pm and went off at 7.40pm (A time:3h40m with total DTS of 3h15m)

WU: 6.15am
7am - 7oz
8.30 - b/fast
9.30 - 11.15 - nap 1 (1h45m) - had to be woken but happy
(A time: 3h15m)

11.30 - 7oz
12.45 - lunch
2.30-4pm - nap 2 (1h30m) - had to be woken but happy
(A time: 3h15m)

4.10pm - 7oz
5.15pm - dinner but not interested
6.30pm - bath&BT routine
7pm - 7oz
BT - 7.45pm (put to bed@7.25, took 20m to go off)
(A time: 3h45m)

Total DTS: 3h15m

Day 2:
CP/NW@2.30 for appox 1h - nappy changed@3.30am(sometimes helps to resettle) - went back off about 3.40am. Cry out@5.30am but not wake - woken at 6.30am

WU - 6.30am
7am - 7oz
8.30 - B/fast but not interested
9.30-11.15 - nap 1 (1h45m) - tired went straight off. Had to be woken but happy
(A time:3h)

11.30am - 6oz
1.30 - Lunch (delayed because been out)
2.45-4.05 - nap 2 (1h20m) - not seem a bit tired at 3h15m A time, so kept up a bit longer. put to bed at 2.35pm&took 10m to go off. Had to be woken but happy
(A time: 3h30m)

4.15 - 7oz
5.30 - dinner
6.30pm - bath&BT routine
7pm - 7oz
BT - 7.35pm (put to bed@7.25)
(A time: 3h35m)

Total DTS: 3h5m

Last night - CP/NW@12.30am-1.45am. I went in&changed nappy about 1.30am. Cry out at 5.30am & woken at 6.30am.

The 5.30am cry outs sound almost like a single mantra cry. She doesn't sound as though she is awake though - it's just 1 cry out and then silence. I have gone in and woken her at 6.30am over the last 2days so as not to allow her to make up for the CP/NW - not sure if that is the right thing to do? She seems happy enough when I wake her, but can not go longer than 3h A time in the morning - this morning by 9.15am she was showing signs of being tired, so I put her to bed early - did wind down and put in cot for 9.20, she was off by 9.25. And no doubt I will have to wake her.

I find that she sometimes yawns with 1h30/45m of being up first thing and after nap 2, but i'm not sure whether she just needs a change of scenary. My DD tends to get v. fussy when she's tired. I have found, if I move her/do something different with her, she'll play just fine, so i've been thinking he yawning is perhaps a bit of boredem as opposed to being tired but I don;t know if I'm mis-reading her?

Re: doing BT 10m later - I don;t think I am going to be able to. DH is totally against her going to bed later - it's causes tension. It was bad enough when I pushed her BT back to 7.30pm from 7pm (as it has always been). But this is the guy who got up this morning and said, did Ruby SSTN last night!!!!!!

I agree, I too think that the CP/NW are due to UT as opposed to OT. Usually when she OT, she wakes and cries sometimes on the hour every hour but at the least frequently throught the night and she wakes grumpy.

So what do you think - I am really at the point of having no clue! I feel like I have tweeked until I can tweek no more!!! Help!

Thanks so much x