9 mo - NW, EW, OT????

[Tecike]

HI all !

Here I am again... DS2 is 9 mo and we've been having NW issues for a several months now. I had a thread going about it and since then things are slightly better - meaning he doesn't wake every hour, *only* every 2-2.5. We made progress in resettling, so I'm not picking him up every time. So NWs are now like this: for the first time he wakes 45 min-1 hr after BT, then between 12-1am (where he gets a NF), then between 2.30-3.30, 5-6 (where I feed him again in hopes of getting some more sleep, but nowadays he's up for the day that early!  ). Now this is a good night, sometimes he has periods when he wouldn't resettle, so I have to shush him like every 15 mins. He's probably teething (has no teeth yet, but two are bulging for 2 wks now) but even if I give him meds, it doesn't change NWs. So my question is - can these NWs be habitual if they don't occur at the same time? It seems to me that he still can't transition past a few sleep cycles - like he sleeps 2-3 cycles and then wakes up and can't transition by himself. If this is so, how can I teach him to do it?

As for EW - after DST he had 2 wks when he woke at normal times (6.30-7), but for a few days now he started waking between 5.30-6...and wouldn't go back to sleep even if I AP him! I'm working on darkening the room more, but I'm afraid it won't help...
He takes 2 naps (am-45min-1 hr, pm- 1-1.5 hr), but on one EW day he had a short am nap, a 1.5 hr pm nap that ended at 1pm and he took a CN! This of course threw the BT too late, but again he woke early the next day! So, if darkening doesn't help, how can I make him sleep just a half an hour more in the morning?

And the third thing - can OT cause all these sleeping problems? He doesn't seem tired at all, he's a happy little chap all day long, but all the NWs indicate OT...and I wonder how could I make him catch up on sleep? He needs long A times 3-4 hr and I don't know where to fit in more sleep...especially if he won't take any! 

Any insight is welcome! TIA

[becj86]

What time does he go down for the night? I'm hearing you on 5:30 being a little bit early for waking up, but he might be getting a decent night in before then. Can you write out his EASY so we can have a look?

Also, are there any environmental things that could be waking him then - noise from animals/neighbours, etc.?

The NW's do seem like discomfort/OT to me from the frequency. How long does he take to resettle? I don't think these are habitual. Does he have any props - dummy? I wonder if he's OT at BT as neither of those naps are likely restorative as they're typically under 1.5hr... we may need to tweak a bit to get a longer nap and a CN in but two 1hr naps is sometimes just what a baby needs at this stage, so you're the best one to make the call on that - you know him best, after all

One other thing and this could be totally off-base: how active is he? DS woke a lot with each new physical milestone and also if he doesn't get enough physical activity during the day, his arms and legs move around while he's sleeping and wake him up (restless legs).

[Tecike]

Well, he's super active - has been crawling for 2 months, pulls to standing for more then a month, wants us to walk him for over 3 weeks, cruises along furniture for over a week now...but he's doing that during almost all his A time, like 95%, so he practices loads, and we've been having NWs for like more than 4 months!!!! I know it still affects his sleep, as he wakes so easily and once awake he pulls to standing within seconds and he won't lie down (even though he can sit down from standing  ). I'm thinking that I might rush to him sometimes, as he's in our bedroom and I wake up as soon as he does... 

No environmental things that I know of, except the sunlight in the morning. He does have a dummy, but isn't dependant on it, he can resettle without it. About the time it takes - if I don't go to him as soon as he wakes up, it take ages, as he would first stand for a few minutes, figure that no one is coming, then start moaning for a few mins, then starts crying and then I have to pick him up to calm down...so about 20-30 mins. If I go to him as soon as I hear him stand up, I only have to put him down, or give him a short cuddle (like 5 seconds) and he falls back to sleep.

I'll write the EASY I aim for, and in brackets what I get, 'coz they differ... 

WU 6.30-7 ( he's usually up between 5.30-6), BF
E - solids 8.30
A- until 10
S - 10/10.30 ( 8.30 /9 if he wakes early) - 11.30/12.00 (although he does a short nap here most of the times a 45er)
E - BF upon WU, solids 13.30
A - until 15.00
S- 15/15.30 - 16.15 (now this is tricky, if he short napped at say 9 am, he would be down at 12ish for the pm nap, and then probably would need a CN around 16ish, and another scenario is if he does a 1.5 hr nap at 9-10.30, he usually takes a 1.5 hr nap at 14.00-15.30)
E - BF upon WU, dinner 17.30
A- until 19ish( incl. bathtime, and BT)
S- hopefully down by 19.30 the latest (but had nights when he took ages to settle, even until 20.30)
Then he's up as I wrote in my first post....

And he has 2 NFs still (no DF), which I'm reluctant to give up, as a while ago our dr said he might be hungry at night and he always has a full feed. And small but often BFs have helped with his reflux (before you ask, no, I don't think that's the issue now, he doesn't seem to be in pain when he wakes). Just yesterday we've been to a check up and the dr said anemia might cause NWs, but I'm hesitant about this as well, as he has enough food rich in iron...

So I'd vote for OT, and I can't find a way to make him sleep more, even if I AP him...
Hope you have some good ideas! 

[becj86]

He sounds like he's quite similar in activity level to my DS. Its great but can be exhausting! Those NW's do seem like OT and I suspect its the OT/UT loop - OT from not getting restorative sleep during the day, UT for the first nap setting up the OT.

I think he needs a longer first A time which may yield a better (and restorative) nap, setting you up for another good long A time and another nap. I'd suggest A time could go up to the 3.5hr mark, especially since he seems to handle 3hr A time after a 45 min nap (am I right?).

[Tecike]

The first A time is the one I've been struggling for a month now - he seemed not to be able to handle a long one after a bad night, he would start yawning after 2 hrs..  But then DS1 was sick and home from kindy for 3 weeks and it turned out that if he's home, DS2 gets more stimulation and we could easily move from 2.5 hrs to 3 hrs. So, today I took him out for a walk to get past the 3 hr mark... He was up at 6.30, ended WD at 10 sharp and he was out in minutes. FX that he does a decent nap now!

I thought that even if he had a UT am nap he could catch up if he does a decent pm nap and he shouldn't be OT at the end of the day, shouldn't he? So, should I aim at 3.5 hrs second A time and the same for BT? Before BT he can happily tolerate 4 hrs, but that maybe makes him OT? 

And what should I do if he refuses to sleep? I mean if I put him down after say 3.5 hrs before BT and he just keeps playing in the cot what is to be done? He did that the other night, I didn't get him up and he played for an hour, so ended up crying from OT after 4.5 hrs A time!!! 

[Tecike]

Oh, well, didn't work out as I expected...needed resettling at 35 mins. Luckily he went back to sleep after 10 mins... Was he OT from 3.5 hr A time? Not sure... Hope he does better in the afternoon!

[becj86]

The short A time first up allows him to compensate for the NW's and the EW's... give him a few days of 3.5hr A time first up, resettle the OT waking if/when they happen and it should come good. At least, that's what's happened in my experience

I don't think the A times need to be equal - but keeping that first one a decent length has always been key to sleep not falling apart here. If he's napping past 4pm, I'd cap the nap at 1hr or so - that way he should make it to BT but not have too much of an inclination to party rather than sleep.

[Tecike]

Well, today went well...after the am nap he had 3.15 A time and napped from 2.45pm-4pm (resettled at 3.30pm) and did an almost 4 hr A time, and asleep at 8.05. He did wake at 8.45 as usual, but I hope that if we can keep this routine for a few days, he'll catch up on sleep and finally learn to sleep at night! FX

Thanks Bec!

[katie80]

Hey Tecike,
Sounds like you've gotten great advice from Bec and had a good day today.  Just coming along to help encourage you.  (((Hugs)))!

[becj86]

Fingers crossed for you

[Tecike]

Thanks ladies!
Last night was OKish until midnight, but then he woke almost every hour... I feel so disheartened right now!
I'm on the verge of just giving up trying and accept the fact that he's not going to sleep well no matter what I do...  The past few months I just kept trying and trying and nothing worked. Virtually nothing I know about in theory has worked so far with him... And it seems like my body has gotten used to getting an hr or two of straight sleep, 'coz I function quite normally - I didn't even get upset last night as he woke so often...
I'll keep this routine, as it suits me and him and keep hoping that some day maybe something happens and he clicks to sleeping!

[katie80]

(((Hugs))), Tecike. It's so hard to get so little sleep and I'm sorry you're feeling disheartened.

While I know you're desperate for something to work, I don't think you can base success on any one night. So, I agree, stick with the new routine for awhile; hopefully he'll start stretching out those naps a bit on his own, and then he might start to do a little better at night.  The other thing is... he may need to hit something developmentally before he really starts to sleep through.  He's such an active little guy, it may be that he just has a hard time turning all the way off. You've also got a few factors working against you in that you're still feeding (and rightly so, I think) in the night and the possible anemia link.  Until those are ruled out and you can be a bit tougher in not going to him right away, you might just have to try to get you both as much sleep as possible.

[Tecike]

Well, yesterday he surprised me with a long am nap... I stuck to 3.5 hrs A time after a 6.30 WU, so he was down from 10-11.30 and when I went in to nurse him, he fell back to sleep and woke at 12.30!!!  I was beating myself about whether to wake him or not, but then decided to let him sleep as in the afternoon we were going to my sister's and I knw he would have a hard time with napping - and he did fight the nap, so literally crashed in my arms at 16.30, I put him down and he did a 45er, which threw off BT. It was 9 pm when he finally fell asleep after 45 mins of fussing....He was up 4 times at night and up for the day at 6.10...
Oh, well it was just one of those days... Today he did regular naps (resettled, but fine in the end) I hope for a regular BT...

You're right Katie, there are so many factors involved, I feel it has to be a developmental thing for him to finally start taking longer stretches. So many times I feel I rush to him too early, but if I leave him and wait for the real cry then we're up half the night and we would never get out of OT... 

[becj86]

Fingers crossed for your bedtime, glad you're getting closer with the naps. Hopefully that'll help with nights before something else comes along to mess up his sleep!

[Tecike]

We did regular BT last night, he was down by 8pm, but still woke 45 mins later... Not sure whether this means OT or UT...  Then he did a usual night, up 4 times, WU at 6am, when I nursed him and then he went back to sleep till 7.30! Another surprise after all the EWs. He's down for his first nap, had to resettle after 45 mins... I do wonder when he'll learn to do a decent nap without resettling!