3.5 Months baby - night sleep question

[becj86]

Ok, he's small but he's following along the same curve as he was born on, so its not all bad.

Then he woke at 3:10 and also replug the paci. The same thing was at 4:10 (then I also gave him the colic medicine) and at 5:45

This frequent waking points to either hunger or discomfort. It is possible he's got gas - that would be consistent with the grimaces, squirming and generally unsettled sleep. Do you have lots of milk? I had an oversupply and DS didn't gain weight much - 120g in his first 4 weeks of life and I kept getting told I should go to formula because I didn't have enough milk. I did some block feeding to make sure DS was getting more of the fattier milk by draining the breast better and he put on masses of weight (went from gaining 30g/week to 400g/week). Do you think this is a possible solution?

[orit78]

well, that's the million dollar question - is it hunger or discomfort... I wish I could ask him
I do have enough milk (at least when I pumped I get a full meal in about 15-20 min of pumping). As for the fattier milk - well, that's also a good question. He's a terrible "eater" and used to do me lots of troubles. After 6-7 min of eating he's getting upset and then I moving him to the other breast. Sometimes I have 3-4 "sides" of breast feeding. I was told (by the BF consultant) that the BW method is an old method and now the recommnedation is to switch between the sides since the fattier milk doesn't come only in the end of the meal.
I wish I knew whether he gets the fat part... I try to give him as much as possible from one side, but he's just frustrated (though I know for sure there is still milk on that side). My guess - he's a bit lazy and he like to have his meal with good stream of milk and he doesn't like it when it gets slowlier.
One thing that I think support my assumption that he suffers from discomfort is his day naps - where I can really see how he moves his tummy and ass while sleeping. I can see that he wants to sleep but something bothers him.
I'm so upset with that 'cause I don't know how to help him and me

[katie80]

well, that's the million dollar question - is it hunger or discomfort... I wish I could ask him

Wouldn't that be great? I think one way of determining would be to just feed him when he wakes for a couple nights.  You don't have to go less than 4 hr, but feed him on the initial waking after 4 hr and then see what happens.  If you do this for 3 nights in a row and he starts going longer stretches after you feed him, then I'd say it was hunger. 

It does sound like he's in some discomfort, though, the way you describe his naps and wakings at night.  I've heard there is new research that the fattier milk isn't only at the end, and while some of the BW information on BFing isn't completely up-to-date, I also know that there is a lot of research to go with the foremilk/hindmilk thinking.  If he's getting too much foremilk, he could be quite gassy and gaining slower, which are both symptoms he has.  I'll let Bec chime in on how she block fed as my knowledge of that will be much less than hers.

The other thing I was thinking is if he's been checked for reflux.  Not all reflux babies are spitters, there is a version of it called silent reflux.  This could be another cause of his discomfort and slow gain.

Ok, he's small but he's following along the same curve as he was born on, so its not all bad.

However, there is definitely something to be said for this.  He doesn't have to be a big or quick gainer.  Some babies and kids are just smaller.  Staying on or near his birth curve is the more important thing.

[becj86]

I wish I knew whether he gets the fat part... I try to give him as much as possible from one side, but he's just frustrated (though I know for sure there is still milk on that side). My guess - he's a bit lazy and he like to have his meal with good stream of milk and he doesn't like it when it gets slowlier.

Have you tried breast compressions? They worked a treat here Also, DS used to get fussy when the second letdown happened as it was a bit of a shock to him - could that be an issue? You could also massage the breast near the chest wall to get the fat to release easier/earlier in the feed - it sticks to the ducts more than the watery components of the milk. http://kellymom.com/bf/got-milk/basics/foremilk-hindmilk/

Block feeding is feeding off one side for a set period of time/number of feeds to regulate your supply down to what is actually needed so baby gets a balanced meal during a feed. Its usually recommended when LO is gaining well, but it is the reason my son is still BFing at 13 months, rather than having lasted 6 weeks. As I said, he gained VERY slowly and there was plenty of concern from doctor & child health nurse, etc. I fed him from one side for 6 hr (from wakeup feed), then 6hr on the other side (the afternoon) and did the bedtime feed and night feeds from the first side. I did this for about a week before my supply regulated to where it needed to be.

[orit78]

Thanks, but I don't have "too much" milk - I don't think I should down my supply. I just think that my LO got used to weak sucking. But I can't actually know for sure. I do know that none of my children has a great appetite - even my girls that were fed by formula (in the end) didn't gained so much of weight. I just think it's genetic and I wish the doctors and nurses will understand that some babies have their own curves.
My LO development is great - he smiles a lot, turns from his tummy to the back, raises his head, tries to catch things... I guess my milk is not a cream and also my LO is not a great eater. So the combination gives a thin baby
But I'm more worried about his NW - as I'm not sure if it's hunger, habit or discomfort.

Tonight we had a better night - DH fed him with formula at 23:00. He ate only 50ml. At 3:45 he made some noises and DH gave him the paci. At 4:50 he woke and I BF him. This time I knew it'ss hunger and he actually ate a lot. THen he woke up at 7:40. I try to extend his sleep a bit 'cause I knew he won't eat much - and that was true. At 8:15 he hardly ate. Only few min and didn't want to eat more.
I'm still thinking whether this DF actually works...

[becj86]

You can always drop the DF and see if it makes a difference. For me, the DF was a disaster, DS was up every hour or two with gas and he hardly took anything anyway

I just think that my LO got used to weak sucking.

Try the breast compressions and see if it helps with his frustration at the breast. I don't think block feeding is for you, but breast compressions, I'd back that any day of the week in your situation
You could also add more good fats into your diet - nuts, avocados, etc. to beef up your milk a bit...

I just think it's genetic and I wish the doctors and nurses will understand that some babies have their own curves.

You can always come here for reassurance when you've been beaten up about it We've got healthy babies who are 98th centile and others who've dropped off the bottom of the charts but they're developing, meeting milestones, etc. FWIW, My doctor was so worried about DS she wanted me to go in between the normal checkups because he was not gaining what she thought he should. She met him at 12 months and I asked about his weight gain and she just said she didn't think it was an issue any more - he's meeting milestones ahead of time and clearly not missing out. The reason doc's are concerned about weight gain at this age is in case it affects development, so if he's developing as he should be which he is, don't worry so much.

[orit78]

What is breast compressions? Putting hot towel on my breast?
We're doing the DF with formula now (had it for the last 2 days) - not that I think it'll make him sleep more, but more as a supply of calories. I'm temped to drop it, as for my DD2 it didn't really helped (she slept more hours without the DF) - but I'm concerned how it will affect his night, 'cause last night we had about 6 hours with no feeding.
When do they stop farting and burping? God, those things really kills his sleep...

[becj86]

http://www.nbci.ca/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=8:breast-compression&catid=5:information&Itemid=17\\

When do they stop farting and burping?

Sorry to say it, DS still gets bad gas now if I'm engorged and don't lie back to feed - wakes up screaming just the same as he did back when he was 3 months old For us, it got better (not perfect, but better) at around 5 months but that was when I got my supply under control.

[orit78]

Hey,
Thanks for the information. Funny thing is that I was doing the compression without even knowing this is something that is known. I try to make hjim stay as much as possible on one side. Unfortunately sometimes he really cries and doesn't want to get back to the first side but when I switch to the other side - he continue eating.
I had a terrible day with him suffering from gas (I actually heard he farting in the end) - took more more than 1.5 hour to make him sleep his 2nd nap. When he farted I've understood that this was gas attack and not OT (as I orignially thought). Eventually he slept for 1 hour and 40 min without any intefere from my side - he was tired. But it caused my breast to be full of mlik since there were more than 4 hours between the meals.
I just hope the night will be better

[becj86]

Gas can be really painful for the poor little things

Is his gas worse when you eat certain foods? DS used to have the most terrible gas if I ate egg...

[orit78]

well, I haven't noticed to some specific food. I was just hoping that by the age of 3.5 months it'll pass, though DD2 was suffering from it till the age of 4.5 months - and god, it was terrrible with her since she was a sensitive baby so everything bothered her. I spend all my materinity leave just to teach her how to sleep. I really hoped that this LO will be different
Tonight we had quite a good night - DH gave him a DF at 23:20 - he ate 85ml of formula and slept till 5:30am when then I BF him. Unfortunately he pooped and I changed his diaper so he was fully awake - but I didn't have eye contact with him (otherwise he start smiling to me and be fully awake) and though it took him some min to fall back to sleep, he slept till 8:30 with no interferes in the middle.

I keep wondering about the formula DF that we give. We've tried it for the last 3 nights - mostly because of his weight (I don't believe it makes him sleep more). But I wonder if it's better that I'll pump and give him a pumped milk (anyway in the last 3 nights I pumped at about 22:30-23:00 but not full meal - just to reduce the amount of milk).

[becj86]

I keep wondering about the formula DF that we give. We've tried it for the last 3 nights - mostly because of his weight (I don't believe it makes him sleep more). But I wonder if it's better that I'll pump and give him a pumped milk (anyway in the last 3 nights I pumped at about 22:30-23:00 but not full meal - just to reduce the amount of milk).

This is your personal choice. If you want to BF exclusively, then yes, you look at pumping for the DF. If you're ok with the mix feeding, then do that.
Here is a thread where this question was asked: http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=222356.0