Help - with everything!

[EllieH]

Please help me!

I have a Grumpy/Touchy baby (I think - she's very difficult anyway).  I have already posted on the EASY pages about her and mentioned there that she possibly has reflux.  I don't know though - surely it could just be that she's difficult?!

Anyway - it is, and always has been (she's three months now), impossible to wind her down.  I have tried for the last week or so taking her up to her room (she feeds in there at night and is changed in there, though she's sleeping in with us) and sitting there with her to wind her down but as soon as I do, she starts crying.  She really doesn't seem to give sleepy cues but if even if I catch her at a yawn, she's crying by the time I've sat down with her in her room.

I swaddle her under the arms - she loves sucking her hands.  I have tried gently reading to her, singing to her, playing music, giving her a soft toy, lying her on a mat.... Nothing seems to work to wind her down.  I don't know what else to do.

The only thing that does work is to take her vertically on my chest and to let her suck her hands - but that takes so long to calm her down that she's asleep or almost asleep by the time she's calm.

I then put her down - but she's just woken up after only 15 minutes.  I didn't sit there and shh/pat with her because I was just going to cry and that was going to get me nowhere.

We went swimming this morning and so far today she has slept for an hour and a half. 

I know messages to my other post say that if she has reflux it'll be hard to train her to do anything but what if it isn't reflux?  And what do I do in the meantime?

[EllieH]

Just to add to that - having woken up after only 15 minutes she's now sitting in her bouncy chair staring at her feet and yawning...

[anna*]

Remember the purpose of the wind-down isn't to make them drowsy - it's just to signal to them that you're going to put them down for a nap. It's OK if she has a cry before her naps, totally normal. I'd do a short wind-down routine - change nappy, close curtains, cuddle and sing a song, then put her in her cot and say goodnight, and then come in and shush-pat if she's really upset.

If she DOES have reflux, yes your first priority is get her treated, and in the meantime probably put her in a sling so she's in that position she likes upright on your chest.

[ZacsMumme]

Hugs,
Just regarding the reflux - do you see her displaying any symptoms? If not, and this is the only issue it could still be that, but as Anna says, she could just be an LO that needs to learn to settle to sleep. Some do need a little cry (not a real one but a mantra) to shut out stimulation and drift off. I found that with my touchy

Reflux symptoms
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=654.0
Manta cry
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64160.0

[EllieH]

She does have some symptoms.  She's on ranitidine now but I think has sicked up more since being on that than before.

What's so frustrating about her daytime sleep is that at nighttime when I feed her, I can put her back into bed awake and she will put herself to sleep and if she wakes, she will do so as well often.  She just won't do it in the daytime - I guess that could come from the fact that I've never really asked her to do it herself?

She will cry a lot when I put her down to sleep - I've not heard of a mantra cry before but will listen out for that.  How long do I let her cry before doing ssh/pat?

Will also try a short wind down as well - thanks Anna.

[ZacsMumme]

She's on ranitidine now but I think has sicked up more since being on that than before.

Ranitidine wont help reduce the spit up, but should reduce the discomfort from the acid. How long has she been on the same dose? Ranitidine is very weight sensitive so if she has gained 500gm-1kg her dose may need to be reviewed.

What's so frustrating about her daytime sleep is that at nighttime when I feed her, I can put her back into bed awake and she will put herself to sleep and if she wakes, she will do so as well often.  She just won't do it in the daytime

Reflux isn't always continuous discomfort. Some LOs will sleep terrible at night but nap well, others like my Z was in discomfort all day and would crash from exhaustion at night and sleep very well.

Does she settle better for naps if upright? Maybe try a baby seat/swing/car journey/putting her cot on a 30degree+ angle and see if she sleeps better? x

[EllieH]

OK - interesting.

So I did a short wind down and put her in her basket at 8.20.  She cried - not all out crying - for five minutes and then went to sleep.  She woke up again after only 15 minutes but I picked her up, walked her round and sang Twinkle Twinkle and put her down again.  Five minutes' crying again and she went to sleep by 8.50 and is still asleep now.  Now I have that old dilemma of whether to wake her or not!!

[EllieH]

She's only been on ranitidine since Monday evening.  She has three doses a day, each of 0.7ml.  The calcs were done on the basis of her being 5kg.  I had her weighed yesterday and she's now 5.26kg.

Before ranitidine, she didn't really spit up that much - if she has reflux, it must be as a silent refluxer.  Since starting the ranitidine, she has spitted up after each feed when I have given it to her - more substantially than she ever used to.  Does anyone know if that can happen with ranitidine or does it suggest it's not for her?

Sleeping today after her morning nap was not good.  She woke up after 15 or 20 minutes every time 

She settles best when held in my arms if I'm standing up.  Her basket is already on a slight angle.

[ZacsMumme]

Before ranitidine, she didn't really spit up that much - if she has reflux, it must be as a silent refluxer.  Since starting the ranitidine, she has spitted up after each feed when I have given it to her - more substantially than she ever used to.  Does anyone know if that can happen with ranitidine or does it suggest it's not for her?

Its hard to tell after only a few days. It can take up to 2 weeks to see the full effect of the meds, though I would have thought you would notice some improvement by now
I dont believe that Ranitidine can cause more spit up, it could be a coincidence. How old is she? GS will caused increased spit up...My DS had/has silent reflux and he would intermittently spit up more, then have periods where it was all silent, or small acid curdled milk bits.

When are you giving the meds? before a feed? How much before a feed? - Is your LO taking more per feed since being on it?
Any change in milk? ie if your not BF and changed formula this could have an impact.

I know your not sure if it is reflux, but

Sleeping today after her morning nap was not good.  She woke up after 15 or 20 minutes every time 

She settles best when held in my arms if I'm standing up.  Her basket is already on a slight angle.

this certainly indicates some discomfort - even if it is wind/gas/gripy tum etc

[EllieH]

She's just turned 13 weeks so could be GS but she's not been eating noticeably more.  I've not noticed any particular difference apart from the greater amounts of spit up, as I said.

She's exclusively BF.  I'm giving the meds before I feed.  Someone recommended 20-30 minutes before but I've not really managed that so far.  This evening I did it 15 minutes before and she still spat up.  I don't think she's taking more per feed since starting the meds.

the 15-20 wake-up thing seems the biggest indicator to me that there is some discomfort...I just don't know how to deal with it! 

[ZacsMumme]

Are you Bf with her upright or you laying down to slow your flow?
How's you supply? If its really fast and good then it may be too much for her

TBH - the isn't a lot you can do other than AP like mad, or shh/pat like Mad trying to resettle. I found once the discomfort was gone we had 30/45 min naps, and then I could sleep train but with pain, or the possibility of it it's just too hard....can you try 1 nap a day out ie sling/car..? Sometimes this can help you and them

[EllieH]

I BF with her tummy to tummy.  Not sure how my supply is TBH but I don't think it's too fast.

I'm finding that walking around with her in a dark room singing to her is good for calming her but then rather than putting her down to sleep when she's sleepy but not asleep, most of the time she's already dropped off.  It's just so hard not knowing whether there is a problem or whether I just need to persevere with the sleep training.

I quite often take her out in her pushchair in the afternoon and if she's not really slept since the morning she will sleep then.

She cries a lot during the day so there aren't many times when she's just quiet, awake and happy - again, who knows whether that's because there's a problem (reflux, other digestive discomfort, not full enough on my milk....) or because she's OT....

I've managed to get her to go to sleep again this morning and we're approaching the 45 minute mark so we look ok on this one.  I just find it always deteriorates from here....

[EllieH]

OK - feeling really discouraged by everything and really don't know what to do.

I haven't had a nap of longer than 45 minutes since last Saturday morning - don't know what made that different.  After a period of only waking once a night, we are consistently back to twice a night.  Typically sleep in a day is 3 or 4 45 minute naps.  Bedtime was 7pm but is getting earlier because she's too tired and just falls asleep when I'm feeding her.

I tried (not that consistently I'll admit) shh/pat but really found it made no difference at all.  Once my LO is wound up, it is REALLY hard to bring her back.  I have to confess to being sceptical about the likelihood of it working.

This morning I sat with her through 20 minutes - ok.  Then I tried the same at 30 minutes - she woke despite me trying to stop her limbs moving.

There was a possibility of silent reflux so she's been on ranitidine for nearly a week now.  I think she has cried less so I don't know if she is really in discomfort anymore...

I just don't know what to do -

- if it's developmental that she's napping for 45 minutes only, do I just sit it through and wait until it improves?
- can I leave her crying for a bit when she wakes up after 30 minutes and see if she resettles herself?  I am worried about her feeling like she's just been abandoned...

Help!

[jessmum46]

(((Hugs))) Ellie

The 45 min naps can very much be developmental at this stage and to an extent you just have to muddle through and do the best you can - I know it's really tough but it will get better as she gets older and learns to transition through sleep cycles.  Are any of your naps more like 30 mins?  That would indicate OT/discomfort rather than a developmental short nap.  Have you had any success at resettling?

Are you feeding at both the NWs?  It's not unreasonable at this age for your LO to be waking twice to feed.

can I leave her crying for a bit when she wakes up after 30 minutes and see if she resettles herself?

If it's a mantra cry - yes.  If she's properly distressed and crying for you - no.  Are you able to tell the difference?

I tried (not that consistently I'll admit) shh/pat but really found it made no difference at all.  Once my LO is wound up, it is REALLY hard to bring her back.  I have to confess to being sceptical about the likelihood of it working.

Shh-pat isn't a magic fix and you won't get instant results, much less if you aren't consistent with it.  Have you tried variations e.g. just the patting, just the shhhh, hand on back/side/shoulder instead of patting, rubbing cheek?  A lot of LOs don't like shh-pat the 'standard' way - you have to experiment a bit to find out what your LO likes best.

(((Hugs))) again and hang in there - you are doing a great job even if it doesn't feel that way xx

[EllieH]

They probably are closer to 30 minutes than 45 most of the time, probably.  I've had I think only two occasions when resettling her has actually worked.  If she is in discomfort, I don't know what to do about it really.  I'm sure she is OT most of the time but I can't get that sorted because she never sleeps long enough.

We've just managed one of 15 minutes.... She'd had A time of 1 hour 15 prior to it.  DH has just gone to try and resettle her.  From the sounds on the baby monitor, it's not going well.

Yes, I feed at both NWs.  It's just frustrating because we had a week (about three weeks ago now) when she only woke once in the night so I had hoped we were past it...

Mantra vs distressed cry - no, I'm not convinced I can tell the difference...

Shh-pat - I have tried just patting with a white noise CD on or her womb noise sheep, tried on her side and a little on her back patting her leg.  I just find it really stressful and upsetting because I try to do it and get nowhere so just end up sitting beside her crying.  I just wonder whether I should just give up and go back to having her sleep on me...but then I feel I'm making no progress   If I want to do it consistently, I don't see how that fits in with having to go out to things or to seeing people because then she won't be at home for naps anyway...