Touchy 8 month old - 19-35 min naps

[becj86]

Hi amateursuch,

Can you post your DD's routine? Could she be in pain - are medicating for teething? Pain and overtiredness are typically the causes of 20min naps, but it can be extreme undertiredness too - hard to suggest anything without knowing a bit more. xx

[TracyP21]

An update - not sure where we are at currently - had slight improvement but still short naps.  Got him through the 20 min jolts, can sleep through this now - have upped his activity in morning (jolly jumper for a bit and lots of rolling around the floor).  Still waking around 25/30/35 min mark, he's def teething, waking up sore but meds don't seem to help (using pamol and also ibuprofen).  Have started sleeping him on his tummy and he settles quicker and if I get in there at the right time I can ssshh pat him back to sleep, but he is very jerky around 40 min, then 60 min mark, basically every 20 mins he will shudder or start moving his hands, which then wakes him up.
We have changed his reflux meds as ranitidine didn't seem to be working anymore and putting infant gaviscon into his bottles so that has helped a lot with the spills. 
Still not sure why he is waking up at this time into his sleep, his AT has gone down slightly 3hr 15 mins, due to extra physical activity.
I am thinking its a teeth thing but he is 9 months on Tuesday so we have had a month of this.
Then to top it off 3 nights out of the last week he has got very upset at bedtime when we leave the room, fine if we come back in.  I have been sitting by his cot till he drifts off - SA?

[becj86]

I have been sitting by his cot till he drifts off - SA?

Probably. Best to stick with him through the period of SA. Peek-a-boo can help

Teething can cause a reflux flare, so it could be teeth/reflux pain. Stirring every 20mins sounds like pain to me but that he can get back to sleep or stay asleep with shush/pat could mean its not so bad as it was when that was unsuccessful.

[TracyP21]

Some days the sssh pat works and others it doesn't.  The thing is he can go pretty much 3 hours AT on 35 mins sleep now, but that means sometimes we need three naps and the third one is hard to get.  Just wondering when will this improve?  Hoping when he starts to crawl he might sleep a bit better.  Bec, your tip about more physical activity has certainly help! 

[becj86]

That's great. We were always out doing stuff at this age, though DS was walking well just before 9 months, so it made it a bit easier.

Have you tried EBT instead of a CN/3rd nap?

I found DS sleep was great when he'd had plenty of exercise not just because he was physically tuckered out but also because his body seemed to need a certain amount of movement and his arms and legs would go nuts if he was sleeping and hadn't had enough exercise during A time. How is he waking? How does he behave initially after he wakes?

[TracyP21]

Yes we mainly do EBT - 6:30pm.  Daylight savings hasn't helped - its so light at night now, we shut all the curtains in the lounge and have blackout curtains & a blackout suction cap curtain on his window just to get it darker but his room faces west so its still a bit light.

I found DS sleep was great when he'd had plenty of exercise not just because he was physically tuckered out but also because his body seemed to need a certain amount of movement and his arms and legs would go nuts if he was sleeping and hadn't had enough exercise during A time. How is he waking? How does he behave initially after he wakes?

Yes its definitely his arms that move, specifically hands twitching.  He wakes up and will start crying, definitely not happy about being awake.  I am in his room from the 30 min mark to the 45 min mark to control these twitches going on.  Yesterday I think I scared him at the 40 min mark and he woke up.   I patted his bum and got him back to sleep after 10 mins and he slept for another 30 mins.  I have usually got him out of bed once he started crying and lifting his head off the bed (he's on his tummy now which has seemed to help as well), but realised yesterday if he can't see me the patting will put him back to sleep and he was def tired enough to resettle as I pushed him to 3hr 45 mins yesterday.
He usually wakes up with a hand twitch and then I am see him physically rousing himself from sleep.

DH and I were talking about it last night and maybe he's just a light sleeper - at night when we check on him/put an extra blanket on etc he will always move his head/arms around, do big sighs but never wakes up!

[becj86]

Yeah, we have a light and very active sleeper - tricky but they do work out how to stay asleep eventually.

Maybe some more fine motor stuff if its specifically hands - leaves to play with in the park or different sized/textured balls/fabric... What about something to hold while sleeping - a dummy in his hand or a blankie?

[TracyP21]

Maybe some more fine motor stuff if its specifically hands - leaves to play with in the park or different sized/textured balls/fabric... What about something to hold while sleeping - a dummy in his hand or a blankie?

Thanks heaps for the great ideas Bec.  Today was a HUGE success in our house - asleep at 3hr 35 mins and then woke up at the 30 min mark by a train whistle (!), but with 4 minutes of bum patting back to sleep and slept another 45 mins without help - so about 1hr 20 ish this morning.  What a difference that made today.  He had 30 mins this arvo which will us through to bedtime. 
Question - do you think eventually he will sleep through the 30/35 min wake up as he gets used to sleeping longer?
He had 11 hours sleep last night and nearly 2 hours today so it that okay - I'm okay with the short arvo nap if the morning has been okay, but is that okay?

[becj86]

Yeah, that sleep total seems pretty good for this age. It may just start increasing a little as he gets caught up on the little bit of OT hanging about but that's pretty good - when he's happier, you'll notice

He will get used to sleeping through that 30/35min stage - I think that'll come with a few more good days strung together.

[TracyP21]

So we seem to be over the 20 min wake up - yay! - but definitely waking up at the 30 min mark still.  Our first AT is 3hr 35-40 mins - have just upped it a bit.
The Good News - today he fell asleep in his cot but just a bit of bum patting - twice!  Woo hoo!  The Bad News - still making up at 30 mins, first nap I couldn't resettle though he was close so many times, I tried for about 40 minutes.  The second nap, again he woke at 30 mins and resettled after 14 mins to sleep another 37 minutes.  So some progress has been made today.  I have been standing at the bottom of the cot so he can't see me (he is on his tummy), patting his bum and using my voice occasionally to reassure him.

Question - since I am getting consistent 30 min naps does that mean the AT is actually too long for him and he needs a slighter shorter one?
Question - I have been putting my hand on his back at about the 28 min mark to see if I can get him to settle through the 30 min mark  but not working yet.  Should I do this (wondering if it could disturb him if he is already in the light sleep cycle stage) or should I actually start patting him sooner to see if that helps?

This is my new plan of attack:  get him calm, put him in the cot so he falls asleep in there and gradually wean him off the bum patting.  When he wakes at the 30 min mark, pat him / use voice to reassure him but don't get him out of the cot as this is what he is used to / expecting.  Try for 30-40 minutes and if unsuccessful have a low key next AT - though not sure what time to aim for with the next AT.

Question - one day a week he is with his grandparents while I am working.  Nana has been holding him for his naps - should I get her to do what I am doing or will it be ok for one day a week.  He is at their house.

[becj86]

Question - one day a week he is with his grandparents while I am working.  Nana has been holding him for his naps - should I get her to do what I am doing or will it be ok for one day a week.  He is at their house.

I'd let Nana hold him - better for her snuggle requirements to get them while he's asleep than when he should be active It also won't matter too much in the grand scheme of things - he will either be an independent sleeper or not from what happens most of the time.

Question - since I am getting consistent 30 min naps does that mean the AT is actually too long for him and he needs a slighter shorter one?

Possibly. Any milestones met or nearly there? That can increase sleep required, as can teething... You could try dropping it by 5-10mins and see what happens. It will be easier to tell once he's settling himself to sleep.

Question - I have been putting my hand on his back at about the 28 min mark to see if I can get him to settle through the 30 min mark  but not working yet.  Should I do this (wondering if it could disturb him if he is already in the light sleep cycle stage) or should I actually start patting him sooner to see if that helps?

I would either do HTTJ from 25min through to about 40min or so, or just be there and start patting when he seems like he's having trouble settling back to sleep - let him have a go if he's just wriggling/mantra crying though, so you're not disturbing him but there to help if needed.

I still wonder about discomfort - are you sure he's definitely not in pain? Mainly I wonder because these short naps have been going on for so long.

[TracyP21]

Possibly. Any milestones met or nearly there? That can increase sleep required, as can teething... You could try dropping it by 5-10mins and see what happens. It will be easier to tell once he's settling himself to sleep.

Two bottom teeth at 7 months, nothing else so far but always seems to be hard out teething.  No crawling, lots of rolling and starting to drag himself along.

I still wonder about discomfort - are you sure he's definitely not in pain? Mainly I wonder because these short naps have been going on for so long.

This is always at the back of my mind since its been over a month since I first posted.  He has infant gaviscon for spilling which is not almost non-existent, changed from randitine to omeprazole, infacol in case its wind (and he can bring up burps 1 hour after feeds), alternated pamol and ibuprofen for teething which has made no difference.  He's on 250ml x 4 bottles a day, 3 small meals with snacks.  Not constipated, goes 2-3 times a day and poo has just become solid so sometimes its a bit of a strain for him.  He's a great weight (11kg) and generally happy (just tired).  Going great nights - STTN (always) - doing 7pm-6:30am.

The doctor is sympathetic but says some kids don't sleep!  He's so obviously doesn't want to wake up.  I blame myself for holding him too much to get him to sleep.  We have tried W2S for 9 days - mixed results - just resulted in a 40 min wake up.

[becj86]

And he goes to sleep independently for his night sleep?

Does he sleep longer when Nana is holding him for his nap?

[TracyP21]

And he goes to sleep independently for his night sleep?

He sure does - we put him down, say good night and he either talks for about 10 minutes or goes straight to sleep.  He puts himself through his transitions all night - we can hear him turning his head back and forth. 

Does he sleep longer when Nana is holding him for his nap?

Its 50/50 really, depends how tired he is.

Its such a mystery.  It doesn't seem pain when waking up because he just physically rouses himself awake, then looks around and will start crying.

[becj86]

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And he goes to sleep independently for his night sleep?

He sure does - we put him down, say good night and he either talks for about 10 minutes or goes straight to sleep.  He puts himself through his transitions all night - we can hear him turning his head back and forth. 

Well in that case I don't think its an independent sleep issue.

I also think that if he doesn't usually sleep longer when being held, its not that...

Some babies just don't nap well until they're on one nap, that's not what you want to hear though, I'm sure. It is a bit of a mystery though.

Have you tried some white noise to drown out the noise of the day so he's not feeling like he's missing out on anything when he stirs from his nap?