Desperate dad: 7mo has endless NWs + Update: plan to cut off all solid & wean BF

[ZacsMumme]

We really don't know what caused her to wake up every 30mins like this. (But she stops as soon as my wife gets in the room and just says "I'm here".). We believe she knew how to settle down on her own before. And last night she was able to do that most of the time. The crying is different somehow.

Do you think its part of the SA from CC? - She may be needing reassurance? hugs its tough when they are up and down so often!

Maybe we should give pain killers before bedtime like you and Kara said?

It wont hurt to try and then rule it out

Also, can you tell me what "first A time" you were referring to? day D or day D+1? And why 2h45mins for the 2nd nap? Because our DD looks tired at day D+1 at the 2h mark before the 2nd nap. We tried to keep her up for 2:30.

I suspect she looks tired because this is when she is used to sleeping. 1.10 is a typical UT nap lenth, plus she is quiet old to be having a CN, it is likely this is robbing from night sleep. When she refuses it because of UT she then is probably OT by BT. At this age she should be able to do 3 hrs A after a good nap. Though I know she may need time to get there.

- day D+2:
1st A time: 3h, nap for 1h30, woke up at 11:30
2nd A time: 3h, nap only 30mins, woke up at 15:00 (tried PU/PD but after 30mins, we picked her up)
Breastfed at 16:00 to get her into a catnap but cried for 10mins, breastfed again at 16:30. Sleeping during breastfeeding, then put to bed, napping a total of 40mins.
Bedtime: 19:00.

Ok just seen this ^^ That first A time is great. I would stick with that. I wonder if the jump to 3hrs A second A time was too fast resulting in the 30min OT nap, hence trying 2hrs45 mins first to gradually push her out.

Have you tried changing the scene if she gets fusy around the 2hr mark? Often they give tired signs at this age too when they are bored, overstimulated, need a change of scene, hungry etc

It's hard to feel positive.  What are we doing wrong?

Nothing, babies are hard to work out! I do think she is definately in a bit of an UT/OT loop and things will start to improve.

When she wakes in the night how much is she crying? - what is the NW like  ie screaming? fussing then cry? etc

hang in there!!!

[dlhson]

Hello all,

We are REALLY REALLY DESPERATE NOW! It'd be a bit of an exageration to say she didn't sleept at all for 2 nights now. But it's quite close to reality.

Stretching the 1st A time in the morning seems quite ok, about 3h. But in the afternoon, she refuses to take naps even though she shows signs of tiredness at about 2.25 or 2.5h mark. She would cry the world out no matter what we tries. But she naps anyway for about 30mins on day D+3, and 1h on day D+4 after fighting so much and being put on a stroller and went out of the house.

But the worst part is the night. 2 nights in a row now, she slept for a total of only ~3-4h each. The rest is spent crying, screaming. She would cry no matter what we did. Only when we turned on the light, held her on our shoulder and walked around the house. She would look happy and wide awake. As soon as we stopped, she cried.

We don't care about not using props anymore. We used anything we could, breastfeeding, changing diaper, giving meds, rocking, bringing her to our bed, you name it. Nothing worked! We would use any prop right now if you can just tell us.

The routine for day 3 + 4 is:

Night day 2:
- From 18:30 to 22:00, sleeping a long stretch with 2 times waking up and need comforting. From 22:00 to 1:00, refused to go back to sleep. Slept from 1:30 to 4:00, then staying up until 06:00. Slept until 7:00.

Day 3:
- First A time: 3h. Nap at 10:00 till 13:00 (3h long. In hindsight, this was our mistake because the night was a nightmare).
- Second A time: ~2h45m-3h. Showed signs of tiredness but refused to nap. Finally took her out on the stroller at 16:30 and she napped for 45mins. Waking up at 17:15.
- Put on bed at 19:00 when showed sign of tiredness. Appeared to sleep for 10mins, then woke up and refused to go to sleep. Crying so hard that we needed to turn on the light. She looked wide awake. Put back to bed at 22:00. Slept for 1h, then started crying, screaming. Picked her up again until 1:00. Slept from 1:00 to 2:00 then hell broke loose. Crying, screaming crazily. Demanded to be walked around the house with the light turned on. Any other things and she would cry. She would stay up until 6am. A bit of a short sleep there until 7:00

Day 4:
- Morning after eating slept from 8:00 to 10. We don't know if we should call it a morning nap or the compensation for the night sleep.
- First A time: 3h. Nap for 2h
- Second A time: ~2:30m, looked tired but again refused to nap. Took her out and she napped for 1h. woke up at 14:40.
- Bedtime at 18:15.
- Currently crying and screaming as usual.

Some other notes:
- Pooping 3, 4 times a day now, even twice during the night (shortly after bedtime and one in the early hours)
- Her bottom is kind of red.
- We thought those are the signs of teething also coming up now too. Not sure.

We're so scared of the night now. And we're clueless. Night, please go away.

[becj86]

At this point, if she were 'just' overtired, she should be able to go back to sleep if you APOP (accidental parenting on purpose). I would venture to say there's some level of pain involved here. Could be teething - I've not seen/heard of teething destroy sleep to quite such an extent before unless in combination with something else.

So I have a few questions:
Are you giving pain meds? If so, what and how often?
What are her poos like - texture, colour? Any crying when pooing? Any gas?
What has she been eating - any acidic fruits for example that may be burning her bottom? DS has been known to be in a lot of pain from acidic poo on his bottom and I've used a thick barrier of antiseptic nappy cream to help it heal and prevent further damage.
How is her weight gain?
I now wonder if part of this issue might be something called reflux - it can go unnoticed in the early months and get to its most severe point at about 4 months and stay there until treated. Do any of these symptoms ring any bells? Reflux 101 - General reflux information

Here are some tips for calming a refluxing baby - a lot of the tips work for gas and other tummy troubles as well tips for calming my refluxing LO

At the moment, I'd be doing whatever you can to get her to sleep - does she sleep in the car? Maybe you could take some more walks with her in the pram...

[ZacsMumme]

Bec has said it all, but I totally agree re pain. Something is up, even developmental leaps don't cause this much sleep loss, or very OT

[dlhson]

Hello becj86 and ZacsMumme, thanks so much for your reply. Here are our answers.

Are you giving pain meds? If so, what and how often?

--> Last week, we gave Camilia (a kind of syrup) for 3 days, twice a day. Also applied Osa gel on the gum. But didn't seem to help. We've started giving Viburcol (http://www.ritecare.com/prodsheets/asp/hee-2502000.asp) today (twice). Will continue tomorrow, twice a day.

What are her poos like - texture, colour? Any crying when pooing? Any gas?

--> The last 2 days kind of loose. It's sort of like puree. The color is similar to the food she eats. No crying when pooping. Sometimes she farts but generally no sign of frequent gas.

What has she been eating - any acidic fruits for example that may be burning her bottom? DS has been known to be in a lot of pain from acidic poo on his bottom and I've used a thick barrier of antiseptic nappy cream to help it heal and prevent further damage.

--> last 2 days: spinach and cauliflower in the morning. These two are new food to her. Lunch is broccoli, courgette, a bit of chicken. Tea-time food ~3pm is pear, banana, mango. All is cooked using pressure cooker. Dinner is cereal + milk)

How is her weight gain?

--> On Nov 21st (6 months 3 weeks), her weight is 6.2kg (5-7 percentile curve). She had been underweight at 6 months old and the doctor urged us to feed more. The height is ok (65.5cm)

I now wonder if part of this issue might be something called reflux - it can go unnoticed in the early months and get to its most severe point at about 4 months and stay there until treated. Do any of these symptoms ring any bells? Reflux 101 - General reflux information

---> She doens't have most of the symptoms as far as we can tell.

At the moment, I'd be doing whatever you can to get her to sleep - does she sleep in the car? Maybe you could take some more walks with her in the pram...

---> I think walking with her in the pram (is it the same as the stroller) during the night is kind of awkward, don't you think?

Maybe we'll try to call the doctor and see what's up with her? But this has been going on for a month now (well, not as severe as in the last days). And 3 weeks ago, the doctor didn't see anything weird.

Last update:
She woke up already 3,4  times now. The 1st two times, my wife breastfed her but she slept for only 15,30mins. Then we used PU/PD. She went back to sleep after 15mins and for 1h. We just did it again and she went back to sleep for 5mins.

[becj86]

Quote (selected)
I now wonder if part of this issue might be something called reflux - it can go unnoticed in the early months and get to its most severe point at about 4 months and stay there until treated. Do any of these symptoms ring any bells? Reflux 101 - General reflux information
---> She doens't have most of the symptoms as far as we can tell.

These are symptoms that are associated - not every baby with reflux will have all of them, there are usually only 2-3-4 that parents tend to see at first and as time goes on and they watch more closely, they notice more, knowing what they're looking for.

Docs rarely think of reflux as their first thing to check when baby stops gaining weight so well or sleeps worse or becomes more unsettled.

[*Kara*]

Hello again!

I am going to go out on a limb here and suggest that you cut out her dinner time solids.  Also, no more spinach/broccoli - both are very gassy and spinach is very hard on little tummies... it's not actually recommended here in Canada until 10 months of age and only in very small amounts.  The cereal at dinner is likely causing some tummy upset as she isn't getting a chance to rest her digestive system.

I would limit her to a few small portions of veg/fruit/chicken at breakfast/lunch (no more than about 2 ozs total for each meal).  Breast milk is easier to digest and contains more fat/calories etc by volume than solids do. 

This should help us rule out an overactive tummy...

[dlhson]

Hello,

Thanks for suggestion Bec. We'll look more closely at our DD to see if she has any of those symptoms.

I don't want to fill this thread with negativity anymore, so just to summarize last night by saying my wife broke down at 4am. And I became "internally" crazy for a sec. Life is tough. Before that we PU/PD, comforted, changed diaper, etc. She's fully awake. As soon as we planned to bring her to sleep (sitting on our laps, putting on bed), she started crying. She went to sleep at 5am till 7am.

But today seems quite good in terms of EASY. She suddenly went with the routine: 3h A time in the morning, napping for 2h. Then 2.5h A time in the afternoon and napping 1.5h. Woke up at 4pm. Great work for both of them! Bedtime at 19:00, and already up 1 time.

We're giving Viburcol so we'll try to stick with that for 2, 3 days. Then if it's not improving, we'll go ahead and cut her dinner time solids as Kara suggested. The only issue is the pediatrician told us to feed more solid so she can gain more weight.

We'll see the pediatrician on Monday. But to be honest, I feel more assured here with your kind support and advice. You guys know so much and more importantly, are so caring, and attentive to us. And you all do it for the happiness of other families without asking for anything. Your LOs and family are so blessed to be taken care of by people like you. Wish you all a nice weekend with your loved ones.

PS: By the way, do you have a list of suggested vegs/fruits/fish that are more easy on the little tummies, ~7 months? Thank you.

[ZacsMumme]

Hugs, I'll be back but some good gentle foods are
Pumpkin
Pear (mixed together is good too)
Sweet potato
Apple (again mixed together is good too)
Salmon
Avocado
Here is a good site I've just gone to a page on it, but they have good options and advice http://www.homemade-baby-food-recipes.com/pureed-baby-food-recipes.html

Hugs to your wife, it's so tough and sleep deprivation is brutal.

[*Kara*]

Loads of hugs..

Solids won't cause her to gain weight anymore than milk   Though, you can boost her caloric intake easily with avocado - very good for babies and easy on that tummy.

I see you are still using herbal options for potential pain relief.  Honestly, i would just jump to ibuprofen for a night and see what happens.... we know it works for pain - herbal can be hit and miss.

[ZacsMumme]

How is today going? - what happened last night, when did she wake and for how long? X

[dlhson]

Hello,

Last night went surprisingly well for us. The best in a month actually. She got up at 20:00 for a 10mins comforting. Again at about 20:40. Then, this is the wonderful part, she went all the way through until 04:30. We had the best sleep ever since we can remember. It just felt so good. Then she's up from 4:30 to 5:45 (tried to comfort at first for 30mins but she looked awake so we changed diaper then breastfeed). She went back to sleep from 5:45 till 8:40.

We don't want to get over-excited about that but it's definitely a sign of improvement. Because the day had gone well with the routine as I said (the A times are 3h in the morning, 2.5h afternoon, and 3h evening respectively). Plus, we gave Viburcol for 2 days now. The issue is we're not sure which brought about the improvement. Maybe both.

The routine today has been solid too: 3h A, nap for 1h, 2.20 A time, nap for 1.5h, finally 3h A time before bed. Already up once but let's cross our fingers.

Thanks so much for all of your advice. Today we cut off the solid at dinner time, giving her only 30g cereal, then just a bit of bottle and breastfeed (she didn't like the milk that much apparently). Not sure if that's enough for nighttime. But we'll see.

Bisous et bon weekend a toute et a tout (as we all say here). We'll keep updating our progress.

[becj86]

Merci Bon weekend!

Glad things are getting better. Those long stretches are really nice

[ZacsMumme]

Wonderful, even if its a rough one tonight you know she can do it YK, it's a great step for her and hopefully your DW and you got some sleep yourselves!

Let us know how things go, it can take a week or two sometimes for things to get into a routine x

[*Kara*]

Wonderful!