5 mo NWs out of control!

[bestsmilee]

We've come a loooong way. We started out by having no/bad naps, short naps, oddly timed naps, screaming at the swaddle and shh/pat, having it take hours to get to sleep, waking up soon after falling asleep, and waking erratically throughout the night.

Because we were dedicated to the process (except those days where everything just falls apart and it seems like we are back at square one...) we now have beautiful naps, DS has arms weaned from the swaddle (and I thought he would for sure need it for at least a few more months - so this was a big surprise!), we no longer use the shh/pat, we can just put him down and he will fall asleep on his own and when going down for BT can have a really nice stretch of sleep until the NWs...That being said it seems like a lot of our issues have been settling down except for NWs.

His NWs are extremely erratic. There is no pattern. There is no telling when he will wake the next night. I DF him now at around 10:30 and he has gone almost 6 hours at most before I've needed to feed him. So if he wakes anytime before those 6 hours (or 5.5 hrs) I try my best to get him back to sleep. But last night he woke up and was crying from 1:45-3:30 and at that point I didn't know what to do so I fed him, and like I predicted, he fell asleep. Now, he doesn't always fall asleep when being fed at night like I'm hoping it does. Last night he was just crying and crying and wouldn't stop. I did carry him to the other room where he stopped crying, and then the second I walked through the doorway to the bedroom (several times) he started to cry again. He also woke up at 5:30 and was crying and wouldn't stop but his day starts at 7am so I waited until then to feed him.

Some nights he will wake up, babble to himself for an hour, then cry for an hour while we try to get him to sleep, but he won't fall asleep and he will either keep crying or start babbling again and the whole process continues for hours. And there is no long stretch of sleep after these NWs occur. We are so confused as to what is going on.

A few weeks ago I was fed up with the NWs so I used the PU/PD because I was out of tools. Well, it worked for a couple of days but every time he has cried after that and I try to pick him up, he arches his back so far that he is practically launching himself out of my arms head first. So that is no longer an option. While we used to pat him incessantly in the crib until he fell asleep, that is no longer an option either because he tries to arch his back to get away from the pat. So we have no tools to calm him down. He cries quite inconsolably and all we can do is helplessly sit there with our hands on his belly and maybe throw in a "shh" once in a while.

Here is a typical EASY day for us (and we have tweaked and tweaked and it doesn't help the NWs at all):


E WU 7
A
S 8:45 - 10:30 (I cannot get it past this time. He is so tired from the night before that I can't even put him down this entire time. I need to carry him and walk around. Needless to say, I am exhausted in the morning and don't really have the stamina to do this. I try to hold out as long as possible, but once his whining becomes a clear sign that he needs to go to sleep now, I need to put him to sleep.)
E 11
A
S 12:30 - 2:30 (if I miss the window on his one, and ignore his sleep cues - he is impossible to get down to sleep)
E 3
A
S 4:45 - 5:15 (If I'm lucky he will take a short catnap in the stroller. The timing on these catnaps vary. Yesterday he CN from 4:30-4:50)
E 6:15 (He is also extremely cranky before this time. I need to carry him around the house. He is getting heavy.)
Bath
BT 7:00-7:15
DF 10:30
NWs.....

I have no idea what's going on. We have been dealing with NWs since birth. I thought (un/realistically?) that it was possible for him to be STTN by 6 months old. On rare occasion, he will wake up maybe once at night, be fed and go straight back to sleep. But I'm pretty sure we have also been dealing with EWs too consistently (but to me they seem like NWs, it's hard to tell the difference).

We need help! Any advice is greatly appreciated.

[katie80]

Hi there, (((hugs))) that sounds quite tiring!

Is he just 5mo or getting closer to 6?  I think the routine looks fine, tbh, but you can get caught in a trap of not having enough A time in the morning (because he's so tired from the nights), that it ends up being a never ending cycle because he makes up for the lost night sleep in the morning.  You might try to push him by just 5min or so every few days and see if you can't get that first A out to 2hr.  The other thing I notice is the CN.  When it's quite short, like it was yesterday at only 20min, do you bring BT earlier?  There's no way either of my kids would've made it to 7pm after a 20min nap ending before 5pm at that age.  If he's OT before bed every night, that can lead to restless night sleep.

As for feeding, there may still be times he doesn't go 6hr, even though you know he is capable of it.  I'd say if he wakes any time after it's been 4hr, just feed him.  My DS went through a GS around 5mo and I was feeding every 3.5-4hr in the night (he also had a cluster feed after the CN and before BT).  This got better when he started solids a bit before 6mo.

In terms of settling him, it sounds like he may be wanting to just do it on his own, if he is moving away from your pat and pick up.  You can pat the mattress or just sit next to him with a hand on him (or not on him) and say your sleep phrase to reassure him.  I know it's quite difficult to just sit and listen to the crying without 'doing' something, but some babies just prefer less intervention.  Do you know his temperament? The BW "Know Your Baby Quiz"

[bestsmilee]

Thank you for your reply!

Yes, my baby is a quite Touchy and Textbook baby. He actually just woke from his afternoon nap also inconsolable until his next E time.

He just officially turned 5 months last week. I actually had the suspicion that we've been stuck in a vicious cycle because of the first A time but if he gets up 4:30/5:30 by 8:30 he is just really cranky and ready for bed. Do you really think that stretching him to 9am will make a huge difference? This morning I managed to put him to sleep by 8:57am but his afternoon nap went awry and ended after 40 minutes.
If there is no CN I usually try to get him in bed by 6:45 but I think the earliest he's ever fallen asleep was 6:54 so it isn't much earlier than usual. It's hard to feed and bathe him by 6:30 and put him down then. If that's what you think I should do, and perhaps do his last feeding at 6pm to try to get him down earlier, then I will try that. Do you recommend that?

Yea, I agree that he may want to try to settle himself but he doesn't seem to be able to do it for hours. It's such a helpless feeling and it almost feels like we "are letting him cry".

We are hoping to introduce solids a week before he turns 6 months or right around that time so maybe I'll hope that by then he can go longer periods of time.

[katie80]

I actually had the suspicion that we've been stuck in a vicious cycle because of the first A time but if he gets up 4:30/5:30 by 8:30 he is just really cranky and ready for bed. Do you really think that stretching him to 9am will make a huge difference? This morning I managed to put him to sleep by 8:57am but his afternoon nap went awry and ended after 40 minutes.

Oh, my mistake, I was reading that as him being up at 7am and not at 5:30.  If he's been up for 3hr already, then yes, I wouldn't stretch him more.  In fact, I'd guess that he's quite OT from the long day.  Does this happen often that he's awake from that time and doesn't go back to sleep? 

The afternoon nap today sounds like it was OT, if he was inconsolable afterward.  TBH, in this case, I always ended up feeding early, giving the CN earlier and letting it go longer if needed, and then either cluster feeding or giving the BT feed a little early as well, knowing that the DF would hopefully make up for it.  Is he BF or FF?  Do you think some of the time he could be hungry in the early evening, as you mentioned he's often fussy then?  At this age, my two could last 3.5-4hr between feeds in the am, but never in the afternoon/early evening.

If there is no CN I usually try to get him in bed by 6:45 but I think the earliest he's ever fallen asleep was 6:54 so it isn't much earlier than usual. It's hard to feed and bathe him by 6:30 and put him down then. If that's what you think I should do, and perhaps do his last feeding at 6pm to try to get him down earlier, then I will try that. Do you recommend that?

Yes, if there's no CN or the CN is quite short, I would do BT as early as 6pm, that's what I always did with my DS.  Again, at this age, I'd just fit the feeds in where appropriate, doing a cluster after the CN and before bed or making the BT feed a bit earlier, knowing the DF will catch what the BT feed doesn't.  I think he might be stuck in some OT from long days if he's been up since 5:30am, so an earlier BT should help that.

It's such a helpless feeling and it almost feels like we "are letting him cry".

I know it's so helpless and heartwrenching, but you aren't letting him cry if you are right there with him reassuring him with your voice and touch (if that helps; you don't need to pat, you can just hold a steady hand on him).  (((Hugs)))

[bestsmilee]

Does this happen often that he's awake from that time and doesn't go back to sleep? 

Yes, it seems to be a recurring thing that he's up at 5:30 and doesn't go back to sleep. It's not like he wakes well-rested either...that's why I consider it a NW. But he did woke up today again at 5:30 and it's already 8:30 - when exactly should I put him to sleep when he gets up at this time?

If we move up BT, when should I do his last feeding? Should we skip the bath? Will he wake up even more throughout the night? DH is concerned that this will wake him up for the day even earlier the next day.

Last night same thing. He woke up around 1am but I was able to settle him. Then up again at 2:45-3:15 and then was able to settle again. Then he started crying again at 3:30 so I fed him then. Then up at 5:30...

[katie80]

But he did woke up today again at 5:30 and it's already 8:30 - when exactly should I put him to sleep when he gets up at this time?

It's up to you.  If you can hold him off to a 'normal' nap time, or as close as possible, and still get a good nap, then do that as it will not encourage the NW.  However, keeping him up too long can just add to the OT and he'll crash for that first nap of the day.  Some people will just count 5:30 as the start of the day, go by normal A times and routines and then once the OT has cleared a bit, start pushing the day back out.  Some will push as much as possible to get to a decent first nap time and continue the day from there (this is what it sounds like you've been doing).  The main thing is keeping BT at a decent time, so the overall day length doesn't get too long (over 13hr or so).

If we move up BT, when should I do his last feeding? Should we skip the bath? Will he wake up even more throughout the night? DH is concerned that this will wake him up for the day even earlier the next day.

Lots of very normal concerns.   I would offer the main feed right after the CN, and then offer a top-up feed about 30min before BT.  You can skip the bath, or do it between the feeds.  At this age, they really don't need a bath every day or even every other.  I sometimes did every third and just made sure to give a good wipe down with a warm wash cloth on the days he didn't get a bath.  Typically, LOs sleep better with an earlier BT because you have staved off some of the OT from the very long day, short or no CN.  They aren't as restless in their sleep, don't wake as often and don't EW.  Almost always, a 10-10.5hr night at this age after days like you're having is OT.

[bestsmilee]

Well 2 nights ago he did wake up 3-4 times, but I was able to feed him at 4:15 and he went back to sleep, and I shhed him and he rolled on over back to sleep each time so no prolonged crying and he didn't wake up at 5:30 but instead at 6:30, crying. It was like he still woke up OT. I put him down for a nap but he didn't fall asleep until 9:15, with a bit of protest. Then I tried to get him down for his 1pm nap, but he fell asleep at 2:15 and woke about 30 minutes later. Just when we had gotten to a good naps stage, it all went away! Then he CN in the stroller for about 15 min so I tried to get him to bed earlier, but he ended up falling asleep later than his usual BT! Needless to say, the night was pretty horrible as well. He was practically crying the whole night. I tried to get him down earlier for his first nap because he's still so OT but he only slept 30 minutes! And now because he is so OT he has fallen asleep nursing.
I'm going to try again to get him to bed at around 6-6:15pm. Please help! We are regressing and the NWs are not going away!!
It's hard to pinpoint what is going wrong!

[katie80]

Hmm, it is hard to pinpoint what's going on. Can you write out the last couple days in EAS format? (I'm having a hard time seeing what's happening, exactly. Not that I necessarily will in the other format, but I can try! ) Anything else going on, i.e. teething, etc?

[bestsmilee]

No, I don't think he's teething. I keep checking because I'm suspicious too but there's no sign of a tooth coming in so I have no idea!

Yesterday's EAS:

He woke up at 6:30
E 7
A
S 9:15 (fell asleep a lot later after I put him down)
E 11
A
S didn't fall asleep until 2:40
E I didn't wake up to feed at 3 because he was so OT but he got up at 3:20 to eat
A
E 5:30
S put him down at 6, fell asleep at 6:25
A bunch of NWs...

Yesterday's EAS was slightly weird because of the OT cycle. Today though it was pretty similar, except he woke up at 7:40 (because he had been up from 4:30-6am crying.
I took your advice though again and I put him to bed a bit earlier. Tonight he fell asleep at 6:15.

[bestsmilee]

Help! I am writing this in absolute desperation. The NW situation has gone from worse to horrific. I don't know what has happened but 2 weeks ago we were able to put him down for a nap and he'd fall right asleep and would sleep a nice amount of time. The same would happen when I put him down for the night. He would go down easily and not wake up until 1am. Now since he hasn't been napping well we put him to bed earlier but now he wakes way before his DF and won't go back to sleep unless I feed him. He has 2 cries. One is the inconsolable cry that can last for hours. The other is a cough-like cry that goes on for a a couple minutes, stops for a bit, then starts again...continuously for hours. He has been getting up all night and I suspected that he may have been a bit cold tonight, however warming him up isn't really helping. I just fed him at 6am when I would have fed him at 7am. I'm afraid that my EAS schedule will be all off today. It is now 6:45am and he is crying on and off in the room with DH. I don't think things could get worse than this. I re-read BW Solves all your problems yesterday and I can't seem to find any situation similar to ours. Every time it mentions a NW, bad nap, etc. it seems to point to AP. I can't think of a single thing that we are doing wrong except going to him to quickly. But we don't even pick him up! When we go to him we either shh, say "it's ok", and lay a hand on him. I haven't nursed him to sleep (AP) since he was about 5 weeks old (but if he's really OT, he will on occasion, fall asleep). But now since he cries for so long, I've been told to feed him if it's been about 4 hours so now I'm afraid this will lead to AP. I know he can go a longer stretch at night.
Honestly, where do we go from here? I've heard of regressions but this seems like a giant leap backwards and its been over a week. His disposition has been awful and he isn't happy. He is just plain tired and we can't seem to get him to sleep at all. We've been patient for hours. PU/PD doesn't work (Tracy says to put baby down if he arches his back)...and PU/PD is in response to AP, which I can't find a place where we've done that. I would love to know what we are doing wrong so I can correct it. I just have no idea.

[katie80]

(((Hugs))) sweetie, I'm sorry it took me a little while to get to this. He really sounds OT to me. I don't think your NW issues are due to AP. Lots of LOs who are independent sleepers will still NW if the routine is off, esp touchy ones.

This is going to sound a bit silly now, since you've just been concerned about AP, but is there an AP that he responds to? When things got really off with my DS (not my DD, because I was too set on getting it right with her ), I just put him in the swing to nap for a few days, so he could get back on routine and then we'd go from there. It never hindered his independent sleeping abilities and worked a treat to get him back on track. If there's not an AP that works or you don't want to go down that road (totally understandable), then I'd start giving him an age-appropriate A time (2-2.5hr) and work at resettling any short naps you get and also keeping the CN if you don't get two full naps (and possibly even if you do to get a later BT and push the day back).

As for the night time, I'd go ahead and feed every 4ish hr, whatever you feel is best. But, if you choose to resettle rather than feed, you need to see the resettling through until he's asleep, even if you go past your allotted interval. If you stop resettling in order to feed, then you will be creating a prop and confusing him. Settle him back to sleep and then feed upon the next waking, even if it's only 10min later. Does that make sense? Tracy likened a cough type cry to being hungry, do you think that's what that cry means for him?

[bestsmilee]

Thanks! That's okay. Yesterday was a bit off but I was persistent in getting him down for at least to nap a bit. He napped but very shortly and I did the earlier bedtime like you recommended for the third day in a row. I think it has been a terrific idea because last night he fell asleep at around 6:30 and then didn't wake up until about 12:30 (but he got a DF around 10) but he was crying and it wasn't even 4 hours yet. He calmed down for a bit on and off and then he got really really upset around 1:30 so I fed him then. He slept well until around 4:30 where he woke up crying again and eventually DH got him to fall back to sleep. Then he got up around 5:45 and he had soaked through his clothes so I changed him and tried to get him back to bed but I knew it was not going to get him to sleep so I started his EAS at 6:30 and will do another early BT and hopefully eventually move the EW closer to 7am. Now the NWs are back to how they used to be (which is a relief from the past few days NWs!)

I don't think his cough like cry is attributed to hunger but I do remember reading that as well!

Today's EAS:
WU 5:50
E 6:25
A
S 8:25-10:25
E 10:25
A
S 12:20-1:45
E 2:20
A
S 4:15-4:45 (tried to get him to nap at 3:45, no go)
E 5:40
Bath
S put down at 6:30, didn't fall asleep until 7:20 (but at least he didn't cry at all!)

I'm expecting another night with a bunch of NWs...
 

But, if you choose to resettle rather than feed, you need to see the resettling through until he's asleep, even if you go past your allotted interval. If you stop resettling in order to feed, then you will be creating a prop and confusing him.

I think I'm guilty of this. Like if he wakes up crying and then I try and try to settle him back to sleep and then the time gets later and later - it gets closer to the time where I should feed him, so it seems like I'm giving in.

[bestsmilee]

Ok, here is what happened last night:

BT like I mentioned, was put down at 6:30, fell asleep 7:20
DF 10pm (was awake a bit afterwards but fell asleep pretty quickly)
WU 12:30 (able to calm him with my voice)
WU 1:30 (caved in and fed at 1:45)
WU 4:30-6:15 and then I fed him, started his day and then put him to nap at 8:20 but he only napped 30 minutes!!

[bestsmilee]

And this was last night...

BT 6:30 (fell asleep at 6:30 this time, put him down at 6:15)
DF 10
NW 11:45-2:30 (slept a bit in between this time, and then I caved in at 2:15am and fed him)
NW 5:50 (fed him and he went back to sleep)
WU 7:30

I normally would have woken him up at 7:15am the latest but I wanted him to sleep in if that's what he wanted to do to combat this chronic OT. Today's EAS is a bit off so we'll see how the naps and BT go.

[bestsmilee]

I'm sorry. I feel like I'm posting to myself! Ah! Well I don't know what is happening but he was cranky after an hour this morning but I tried to keep him up at least a hour and 45 minutes. When I put him down he started crying and wouldn't nap. Eventually after being in the crib over an hour, he fell asleep for 30 or so minutes. Then he woke up crying and I got so frustrated when he wouldn't go back to sleep so I fed him after about 3.5 hours. Then he was practically sleep eating so I took him off and then put him in his crib to sleep but he isn't sleeping. It's clear we are not on EAS today. I feel like all of our hard work is going out the window because of this overtired cycle that just won't end. I'm terrified that this lack of sleep is going to impact his development. Everyone keeps saying to let him cry but I am just not interested in doing that. Why won't he sleep? If I knew the answer to this question I could move forward. I don't know how A times factor in on these days which is why I just put him back in his crib after his last feeding. I also think his cough like cry is his mantra cry so I've been seeing how he does without me intervening. Many times he will start the cry and stop on his own but it doesn't get him to sleep. Where do we go from here? What do we do???