3,5m-old still on 2h-EASY, not always easy. should I change? HOW?

[odd]

Hello,

I'm sorry in advance if it's the wrong place to post this or it's been answered before. I've read many topics here but each baby is unique and things I found don't really work for my LO. I'm tired and frustrated. Especially when the only "advice" I here from the mothers in my own family is: "my babies slept through the night from the beginning" or "my baby ate and fell asleep immediately for 3-4h"... how to cope with that?!

This is the background - my DD 0-6weeks:
- one big chaos due to my lack of knowledge and the "good" advice from others
- Breastfeeding on demand, sometimes every hour
- DD overeating, overtired, kranky and nagging
- result: reflux (other: cramps, colic, painfull "windy")
(nobody told me that babies cry also when they are tired)

my DD 7-13weeks:
- by a miracle I found the book by Tracy Hogg about the EASY routine
- applied immediately the 2h EASY: it worked (with crying in the beginning)
- slept at night 3-4h at a time, max 1h naps during the day every 2h
- baby got used to that: I was happy when she was smiling seeing me after waking up
problems:
- started drinking very little, like under 5min from both breasts, and crying in between, angry afterwards
- so I tried to give extra bottle, but most of the expansive liquid I had to pour away
(sometimes she didn't want, sometimes she couldn't drink anymore, her stomach was too little?)
- started waking up at night every 2h (so I fed her)

My DD 13-15weeks, till today:
- all her pains seem to have disappeared
- her favourite routine is EASY 2h, can't blame her, I tought her myself and she gives me very clear signs
problems:
- she naps for only 1h - it's difficult to squeeze the feeding, burping, bathing, dressing up and feeding again in the evening into that (the before bed routine always ends up with crying - everything ends up with crying, even 2h walking, she can't fall asleep in the pram and lately nagging even during walks!)
- she wakes up at night every 2h
- still eats very little at a time (snacks); I tried another "good advice" to give her a full bottle at midnight, to make her sleep till 6am;
of course she wakes up at 2am(!), then 4am and 6am (so I Bfeed her)
- can't prolong her A-time, she gets really upset

It's all in one topic, I'm sorry. But there's maybe one good reason/solution to all things at the same time...

So, now I've found this forum and topics about forced prolonging the EASY routine, by accident (I didn't even know it would be necessary; I was just wondering why other babies can sleep so much longer and without any trainings. And I tried to apply the shh-shh/pat thing, as well as "holding down" at the 35min.
First of all, where should I pat her if she's laying on her back? Should I lift her?
Second, immobilising her at the 35min only wakes her up sooner (after 35min instead of 50min nap). To tell you the truth, I would be panicking if I half-woke up at night and was held down to bed by (light) force, wouldn't you? So, she wakes up, is in panic and starts crying and struggling with legs and arms. I tried to just be there for her, give her the pacifier, shh-shh a bit, put my hand on her head, but she opens her eyes and can perfectly see me in the 99% darkness (very dark room), and if I don't pick her up, starts crying.

In the end, after 2h naps (I managed 2 times, 30min putting her very unhappy and conscious back to sleep), she woke up very cranky, with red eyes and bags under her eyes, screaming. Normally she would be awake, "talking", looking around, waiting for me and smiling at me. Well not every time, sometimes also screaming and nagging even without opening her eyes... But after the 2h nap... she's out of balance... So what's wrong with that 2h nap?? What do I do wrong? Or maybe she's not ready?
I'm out of ideas.
I'm out of energy.
I want to see her happy, not nagging ALL THE TIME.

Do you have any advice?

[jessmum46]

(((Hugs))), its so difficult when so many people give you such different advice isn't it?  I'll say now before anything else that it's up to you whether you take my advice or not!

A couple of questions - how does she go to sleep at the moment e.g. Rocking, paci, feed, in crib on her own etc?  Does she have any medical issues e.g. gas or reflux? 

I would suggest that the first thing to work on would be spacing out her feeds.  At her age she does not need to be fed every 2h and she is most likely snacking.  It's very easy to confuse tired signs with hungry signs and many babies will start rooting when they are tired as sucking is comforting.  What you need to do is just gently push her by 5-10 mins at at time.  So you're currently feeding at 2h, next feed hold her off until 2h10 with a bit of distraction, walk round the garden, look at a toy etc.  She will be a bit hungrier and take a slightly bigger feed.  You know she can manage 2h10, so next feed push for 2h15-20 etc until feeds are at least 3h apart.  You will be surprised how quickly she adjusts

The second thing we need to look at is her A times.  How long do you typically have her awake before trying for a nap?  Could you post a day for us in this format:

WU & E 7am
A
S 8-9am
E 9am
A
S 10-11am etc

I suspect you may need to gently increase her A times to something more appropriate for her age to help her to sleep longer naps.  Typical would be in the range of 1h30-45, though she will struggle if you make a sudden jump to that.  They key is to go slow, increasing 10 mins every 3-4 days and keeping the extra A time really low key.  If you can post a day for us though I will be able to give you some more specific help

[odd]

Hello, thanks for your response. I'm glad someone takes it seriously for me, it's a relief that I'm not inventing problems.

In general my DD (16 weeks) is doing well by the EASY 2h, no medical problems any more, reflux, cramps, most of gas, all finished, so it looks like this:
(I'll start with the evening, as that's more or less the steady point)

19h30 bath (usually after a 30min A-time)
20h Sleeping (by then she's so tired after 1h A-time + bathing+cream+dressing+BF to calm her down, no time left for a story, too cranky)
I tuck her in, pacifier, "good night", kiss, exit = 9/10 she falls asleep quickly,
sometimes she starts calling me (it's not crying any more), so I need to go back after a few minutes and give her the pacifier again, then she's out

2am starts talking and twisting, if I'm not fast enough, nagging for BF = so I BF (a good 10min 'cos there's already more spared milk)
4am or 5am if I'm lucky, DD starts talking and twisting, if I'm not fast enough, nagging for BF = so I BF (7-10min)
6am or 7am if I'm lucky, DD starts talking and twisting, if I'm not fast enough, nagging for BF = so I BF (5-7min)
this feeding I like giving in my bed laying with me, if she falls asleep with me for another hour that's great,
but usually after half an hour she lets me know she wants to sleep in her own bed, she looks at me, talks and moves with her legs and bump,
so I put her to bed with the same routine, tuck in, pacifier, "good night", kiss, and I go back to bed, we fall asleep, me - for half an hour

DAY (although I don't really feel it like that, I'm just continuing, only with daylight, so no such thing as 'breakfast' for DD...):
8h30 BF (4-6min) and dressing
8h40 - 9h25 A-time (first playing alone, flat or in maxi-cosi with an toy-arch(?), then I turn her on her belly,
then I give her a book to look at drawings, then walking with her, talking, showing things behind the window,
singing or not, just trying to do different things every time, even just touching body parts naming them for her, etc)
9h25-30 yawning, twisting and since today also "bagging eyes", so DD to bed (same routine as usual)
10h30 up and we start all over again and repeat till we reach the bathing time

It can be different hours every day, depending on her first WU at night, really. Then it repeats every 2h. You could almost set your watch.
Lately I give her an extra bottle once a day, in the early afternoon, to spare some milk for later ('the more you feed the more you produce' doesn't work for me).
But it doesn't make a difference, she plays till the hour is finished and wants to sleep, sleeps 1 h (the usual). I prepare 150ml but most of the time she can drink only 100ml max. Of course she has better (todays she's sweet, by accident I prolonged all parts of the schedule by at least half an hour, except sleep, maybe that's why ) and worse days, then I wish she would sleep longer.

People ask me questions like:
why don't you feed her just before putting her to sleep (like most babies, thet eat and fall asleep)? so that she can sleep longer with a full belly....
I was wandering myself why Tracy Hogg set the routine in this order (I get sleepy after I've just eaten. I can't sleep hungry.), but hey apparently it works.

What can you make out of it?
thanks in advance.

[jessmum46]

The reason we don't feed immediately before sleep is that LO learns to associate a feed with sleeping, and then can't fall asleep without it.  I wonder if you are already getting into that at night time.....that's a lot of feeds overnight.  What do you think?

I think you need to gently push her awake time.  If she is sensitive, just add 5 mins every 3 days until you get to more like 1h30.  The reason she only sleeps an hour is that she's not been awake long enough to be tired enough for a long nap.  Keep the extra awake time low key, just a cuddle, a walk around or something similar.  If you increase slowly as I suggested she will get used to staying up longer

[odd]

Yes, that makes sense. And it works for my DD perfectly during the day, but at night it is still the condition to go back to sleep. Otherwise it costs me a half an hour of crying and protesting to make her fall asleep. For my own sake I'm letting her do it and trying to concentrate first on the day routine.

Since 3 days I've been prolongiing her A time each time with 15 min. It's too difficult for me to establish 5 or 10min. I've noticed:
- she slept 2x 1,5h (both times before noon)
- DD is out of control in the late afetrnoon (napping 10 min, fussy eating, nagging, crying, impatient, maybe overtired but can't nap longer)
- the A time gets more demanding, I need to keep het busy in a more intense way, much more holding and carrying
- bursts into tears with no clear reason (for me) and is whining while playing
- nights: no change there

is that normal?

[jessmum46]

It sounds like she may have gotten a bit OT from the A time stretch - 15 mins on every A time might have been quite a jump for her.  I wouldn't increase further, and maybe even pull back just a touch if she is struggling.  When you make an increase it is important to hold at the new time for at least 3-4 days before making another change.

30 mins to settle her at night without a feed is actually really good - it took me 2 hours the first time!  But you can tackle that when you are ready

[odd]

hello,

I'm getting a bit desperate. My DD can stretch the A time till 15-30min (not always, sometimes with crying). But her sleeping doesn't get any better nor her eating. I'm getting out of energy and out of milk... I think, 'cos she's never happy while drinking. Should I change to bottlefeeding to make my DD satisfied (filled). Would that make her sleep?

[jessmum46]

Do you think she could have a medical issue making her so unhappy? Reflux springs to mind as she is feeding frequently and fussing - what do you think? Reflux 101 - General reflux information

What makes you think you don't have much milk? 

Can you post what your day is looking like at the moment?

[odd]

She used to have a reflux, but after the right treatment it finished 2 months ago. I don't think it's a medical condition, because her fussy eating happens only in the afternoon and gets worse towards the evening.
The last day looked like this (times more or less):
- E - 20h bottle of 150ml, drinks without a problem and is satisfied, goes to sleep
- S - 4 till 6 hours
- BF night - drinks very well and without stopping for a 'long' time, I can hear her swallowing; it gives me so much pleasure;
- S - DD falls asleep for 2-3hours
- BF night - still good long drinking
- S - DD falls asleep for 2-3hours
- BF - morning +/-8h - still good long drinking, satisfied and happy afterwards
- A - 1,5h
- S - 1h max (that means 50min and never longer)
- BF - 10.30am - still goes fine, still one side is enough like at night
- A - 1,5h
- S - 1h max
- BF - 1pm - both sides needed, starts fussing
- A - 1.15h
- S - 1h max
- BF - 3.15pm starts at one, sucks few times and starts turning her head away getting angry; so I change the side, but DD not drinking well and not satisfied at the end
- A - 1.15h
- S - 30-45min
- BF - 5.30pm - starts at one, sucks few times and starts turning her head away getting angry; so I change the side, and then again, and again, but DD not drinking well and crying at the end
- A - pushing to 1h, with problems
- WD - trying to calm for the evening, upstairs, DD happy to be with me alone, smiling a lot, waiting patiently for the bath
- Bath at 7pm
- E - 8pm - bottle 150ml, happy to sleep

DD is almost 4m old and still asking a lot of my attention, even while playing, needs an often change of activity. Not that I mind giving her my attention, but that's why I'd like her to eat more at a time and sleep longer. That's my goal. She doesn't fall asleep "anywhere" like babies do. If we go for a walk (her in the deep pushchair... whatever you call it), she almost doesn't sleep, just keeps her eyes closed. When we come back she's tired and I have to put her to bed. For 45 min Or maybe she is like this and I'm seeing problems where there are no... every baby is different...

[jessmum46]

Babies do require a lot of attention!  At 4 months you would only expect her to occupy herself for perhaps a few mins at a time, so having to hold her a lot is pretty normal.  Not all babies do sleep anywhere - DD didn't sleep in the car at all from the age of 4 months and stroller almost never.  She needs a dark room and her bed!

I still think you need to increase your A times to get better naps - just push her an extra 5-10 mins every few days until the naps lengthen out.  Typical A time at 4 months is 1h45-2h. 

I don't think with feeding that frequently that supply is likely to be an issue.  The reason she is probably fussing towards the end of the day is that she's tired because she isn't having good long naps.  It's very easy to confuse tired signs with hungry signs - I suspect she isn't actually that hungry, but is looking for the breast for comfort.  I don't think switching to bottles will solve anything here

[odd]

Don't get me wrong. I love my DD very much and would love to give her all my time, especially when she's still so small, but it's just exhausting when I try to make her happy, give her what she needs plus a lot of love and she is screaming (really shouting and getting all red like a tomato, making little fists out of her hands!) and crying so much (tired or hungry I'm guessing). And right now pushing the A time to 2h is really very difficult. It seems like we'll never get there, even by 5-10min, if she sleeps only 40-50min...

Hearing from others things like "my baby fell asleep even before burping and slept for few hours + whole nights" (and actually today my DD started crying after the bottle which she drank with a lot of pleasure, so why crying?!...) or "my baby was so quiet, was laying in her crib and palying" just doesn't make it any easier, especially when one sleeps only so little, getting up 5x/night. Or I'm just surrounded by negative and judgmental people...? I'm sorry for my desperate posts. I guess I'm looking for an instant cure, a miracle to get some decent uninterrupted sleep. Thank you for your help.

[jessmum46]

(((Hugs))), it is so hard when everyone else's baby seems perfect.  Believe me, they are not.  There is always more to it than people are willing to admit. 

How about just working on your first A time, slowly increasing that until you get a longer nap?  I really think it will help her to get more restorative sleep and will hopefully improve her mood a lot.  So start where you're at now (around 1h30) and tomorrow increase it to 1h40.  Keep it really really low key with cuddles, a gentle walk etc and stick with 1h40 for the next three days.  If the nap is short don't worry, just do your best for the rest of the day and try the same A time again the next day.  If you can be consistent for a few days then you might start seeing some improvements.

Remind me - are you feeding to sleep at the moment or settling her another way?

[odd]

thanks.

... especially when it's your own mother giving unwanted 'good advice' all the time. It just drives me nuts. Someone who had easy babies, that slept wherever and accepted the care they got without any complaints. I'm staying with my parents since a few days and I'm almost ashamed that my DD cries so much, wants a constant attention, can't play on her own for 10 minutes, is quickly bored with her toys and I'm blamed for spoling her whenever I hold her on my arm to make her quiet (not always solving the problem). The first few days I understand that it's shocking new for DD. She slept as before from the second day. But her daytime now it's... pffff.... Her bagging me to put her to sleep after only 45min A-time in the morning is weird. Good for my condition though, running 12 times a day upstairs-downstaris all day long.

well, to answer your question:
DD is BF after waking up (always), never to sleep, except for the 2-3 night feedings.
DD falls asleep beautifully on her own (I'm so proud of her!), into the sleeping bag, pacifier, kiss, 'good night' and exit.

but it's not that easy what you suggest.
Her EASY didn't change much. It happened 3 or 4 times that she played happy for almost 2h and then slept for 2h. It was so quiet for a 'long time' that I went to check if she's breathing .  I've been training her for EASY 3-4h for 3 or 4 weeks. I've given up lately on prolonging her A-time, hoping she would stop nagging so much, if I put her to sleep when she's tired and giving signs. This morning I took the nap with her (she starts crying when tired, rubbing her eyes - how can I keep her awake!?), watching her how and why she wakes up. I could see that after 35min she started waking up, moving, opening her eyes, spitted the pacifier out of her mouth and.... clearly she was trying to fall back asleep quietly, closed her eyes again. She failed. After 5-7min she gave up and opened her big eyes, looking around and getting ready to scream (to call someone). So I made her go to sleep again (the usual way), she feel asleep and I think it won't take longer then the extra 30min. We'll see... keeping my fingers crossed. Maybe that's the way with her. She seemd very tired this morning. Lately we get up at 6am, she doesn't want to stay in bed longer, till 8am like before.

For the rest she seems fustrated not being able to explore the world as wants to: laying is boring, however sitting, standing and 'making steps' on the floor being held, is far more interesting.

[jessmum46]

So how long are her A times at the moment?  Can you post your day in EASY format?  If she is waking at around 35/37 mins that can be an UT nap and might mean you do need to push her a little.

(((Hugs))), its a tough job being a mum x

[odd]

oh yes, it is

today was the worst! every single A-time NAGGING, twisting body and screaming every 2min!! I just couldn't keep her busy with nothing... even holding her and hugging was annoying for her...
the times hereunderneath are +/- 10min
E - 1:20am
E - 4:20am
WU - 5:30am
GU - 6am (she kept playing, getting louder and louder)
E - 6:10am
A -
S - 8am
E - 9am
A -
S - 10am - 11am
E - 11:20am (formula 60ml - she can't squeeze more then 90ml)
A -
S - 12:20pm-1pm
and crying/nagging/fussy/rubbing eyes... so back to sleep
S - 1:30pm-2:30pm
E - 2:30pm
A -
S - 3:30pm-4:30pm
E - 4:50pm (formula 80ml - my next attempt to make DD content and calm, failed)
A -
S - 5:15pm-5:55pm
E - 6pm
A - ... + getting ready for BT (I tried to keep her active till the bath time, but gave up bathing, every second of no attention ended up in hysteria)
E - 7:15pm evening bottle 150ml - reading (DD was suddenly not that sleepy any more)
S - 7:30pm

Now, today I've more of the forum and found sth on Spirited Babies... I don't know exactly what that is... could it be that with my DD?