6.5 mos old sleep mess-still

[jessmum46]

Honey, I can feel how stressed you are, it literally radiates off the page at the moment - gentle (((hugs))).  Are you getting help and support for yourself at the moment?  I'm really worried you are getting way too anxious about this and missing out on enjoying time with your LO . Please reach out to anyone who can give you a break, even just for a few hours for some you time.  We are all here to support you but can't help in the same way that someone in real life can.  I really think a step back would be beneficial for you.

Can you confirm for us that your LO is not in any discomfort at the moment?  E.g. Reflux, teething

I'm going to explain this as simply as I can.  Overall your LO is probably overtired, none of us are denying that.  BUT, the reason she is overtired is that her A times are consistently too too short, giving her an UT first nap which is short, and setting her up for OT for the rest of the day.  When you get into that nasty spiral, everything looks like OT.  She will wake up cranky from her UT nap because she's still tired, just not tired enough to keep sleeping.  The super short naps/difficulty settling/staying asleep (if they are not discomfort) are the effects of stress hormones and adrenaline.  You are not going to solve this in a few days, and you won't solve it at all unless you are consistent and actually offer her a sensible routine for her age.

Honey, I am going to be frank with you now, because I think both you and your LO deserve to be in a better place than you are   There are now at least five of us here offering you the same advice, which you yourself have agreed with at various points in this thread.  If you want things to change, you need to take control of this situation and actually stick to it for long enough to see a difference.  I think it's clear that things aren't just going to get better on their own.  Do you agree things are not working as they are?  How much worse can it possibly get?  I know this is so frustrating and we all want to help you, but until those A times get a push I think we're pretty stuck for what else to offer you in terms of advice.

[Shiv52]

Definately UT for that first nap.  No doubt about it.

In terms of consistency I think you will need to stick to things for FIVE days.   If you on day 3 decide to do for a much shorter A time then the counter goes back to zero and you need to start your consistent days over to assess whether things are working. 

Do you have BWSAYP?  If so read the chapter about establishing a routine. That's pretty much where you are at.  The difference is you've a fab independent sleeper so it will be so much easier. Tracey has some great tips in there for keeping to your new a times and how its really important to keep following through. I found it easier to extend naps if I got in there the second she stirred, so didnt even let her try to go back over herself. Once mine were awake they were awake. Once the routine was established they didn't need any assistance.

Hugs. We all know this is not easy. But as Katherine says its probably can't be any worse at this point so it is worth just setting aside a week and getting on with it. I did lots of faffing dropping the CN with DD1 and it was a nightmare. With DD2 I just upped the A times and got on with it and in a week-10 days we were sorted xx

[jcsmom]

Thanks everyone. What has been so tough has been the nights. Since I have ppd depression I need my sleep!I thought that once she was sttn it would all be better. But I see now that her sttn and not having an appropiate routine to go with it just bit me in the bum. She does not have reflux. She may be teething so I am medicating for it.

Last night she finally fell asleep at 6:45 and I heard her every hour until 9:30. I fed then. Then up at 11:30 but ss. Then up at 5 fed and back down until 630.
So as for As. 3 hours? 3:15? What do I do again if her naps are both 25 mins? I don't want to have to keep doing ebt. It just does not work for my family.

I am getting a ton of support from my mom. She helps everyday. She says I should just put her on a set schedule and she will conform.  She said in her day nobody counted A times, they just put us down when it was convenient and we slept! Anyone think this is the way to go? I know Kara and I discussed it but her sleep is so wonky I am not sure it would work. I  just get so stressed not knowing what is coming, when she will nap, when to feed her etc etc.

I appreciate all the advice coming my way. You guys have been amazingly supportive! I don't know what I would do without the help from here.

[jessmum46]

That was really not a bad night at all . Likely some OT wakings in the early evening but a decent long night all the same.

I know you discussed set naps with Kara - but I think your LO is touchy?  Not generally recommended if that's the case as it can spiral off into more OT.......that said (and I am in no way trying to confuse you here) I'm thinking about YOU as much as your LO at the moment, and wonder if setting the naps and actually giving it a decent go would give you the measure of a bit more control?  I'm getting the sense (please correct me if I'm wrong) that thinking A times and how to adjust them is really not helping your stress levels currently?  Respecting your LOs need for good rest and sleep is extremely important, but not at the complete expense of your own wellbeing. You could give set naps a try, commit to it properly for two weeks and then re-evaluate.  If you have your mum to support you in sticking to a plan, all the better . If at the end of that time, things haven't improved at all, then I still don't think you've lost anything you know?

My suggestion for set naps would be: (if you go for it, print this out, stick it on the wall and give a copy to your Mum too!!)

WU 6.30am, treat anything earlier than this as a NW
Nap 1 9.30am
Nap 2 2pm
BT 6.30pm

"Rules":
1. Let her wake naturally in the morning and from naps - the 6.30 WU time is just a guide to calculate when to set the naps, and by letting her wake naturally you allow her to sleep longer or shorter as she needs.
2. No more than 15 mins variation from the set nap times, and 30 mins variation at BT
3. No extra catnaps!
4. Stick to it for at least a week straight, no deviating, and preferably two weeks

It's unlikely we'll hit on the exact right set routine first time, and we may need to tweak in a week or so if for example one nap is consistently short, but you'd stick to those times for at least the first week before making any changes.

You don't have to do this, no more than you have to do any of the things we've suggested . But for your own sake as much as your LOs, and with your Mums support, pick a plan (set naps or A times) that you feel comfortable with and are willing to see through.  This can get better, and it will, have confidence in yourself as a mummy xxx

[Ima shel Alon]

Respecting your LOs need for good rest and sleep is extremely important, but not at the complete expense of your own wellbeing. You could give set naps a try, commit to it properly for two weeks and then re-evaluate.  If you have your mum to support you in sticking to a plan, all the better . If at the end of that time, things haven't improved at all, then I still don't think you've lost anything you know?

I couldn't agree more. I wouldn't recommend set naps usually, I am a big fan of A times, but sometimes it doesn't work - either for baby or for the care giver. I would defiantly give it a thought IIWY. If after two weeks you are still struggling then we can go back to A times and start fresh.

[jcsmom]

Thanks for the advice ladies. Today has been another wash. 30 mins in the AM and 25 in the pm with an extention of 10 whole mins after 30 mins of trying. No catnap as I drove and drove. So she has been up since 1:45.

I will give set naps a thought. It is appealing but not sure she can handle it you know? But so far upping her As is getting us shorter naps, not longer ones. At this point the only thing I have to loose is a decent night's sleep!!!!

To be honest it has taken up most of my thoughts. Not healthy for sure. Someone said to me "so what if she is OT, she's not going to die". True enough. I suppose I feel a loss of control over this since it has been going on since birth! She is such a sweet little thing. The sweetest face/disposition. You'd never know at 6 she had been up for 4 hours! She's a machine. I just wish I didn't feel like her being the perfect sleeper was a reflection of me as a mom, you know?

[jcsmom]

I am going to do set naps! What do I have to lose? I realize now that this may be our only way to a decent day. Can we think of set naps with a 7 pm bedtime? this is closest to what she usually does. She usually sleeps from 6:45-6:45 and it is tough to get her down earlier. We have pretty much stuck to a 6:45/7 bedtime like glue since sleep training except the last few days. Doing an EBT has caused EWU and I think when she has an EWU then goes back to sleep she treats it like her first nap then the rest of the naps suffer. She does shift sleep really well and her total sleep is usually pretty much exactly the same day to day.

So let's do it. What do I have to lose? thanks again ladies, you have been amazing.

[Ima shel Alon]

The way or amount of sleep your LO is having is in no way reflection on you as a mother. You are a loving and caring mother, or you wouldn't try and help her to sleep better.

I would think that Katherine's suggestion about set naps routine would work as well with a 18:45-19 BT. Like she said, after a week we can have a look if the naps need a bit shifting.

[jessmum46]

Yes you could definitely do a 7pm BT with set naps still at the times I suggested.  She may prefer it that way, and then 6.30/45pm would become your early BT if naps are a mess.  Entirely your choice where you want to set them. 

Update us as each day comes, and if you feel like you're going to wobble off the plan, remember there's a big cheer squad here keeping you going!!  We'd all like to see things work out for you

[jcsmom]

Thanks ladies! Last night she slept from 6:15-7 with a feed at 3 and she woke at 5:45 and fussed and played then slept from 6:15-7. So if I am going with the set naps her first nap will be after only 2.5 A time. Do I take advantage of the lie in and long night and move her first nap to 10 or chance she will short nap and just go with 930 and 2?
I will stick to it like glue. At this point, I've got nothing to lose!

[jessmum46]

Since she slept in until 7 today, why not set your nap times at 10 and 2.30 (rather than 9.30 and 2) and 7pm BT and stick to those for the next week regardless of WU time?

[jcsmom]

Ok sounds good! She's in perfect spirits right now after such a long night. I am pretty sure her naps will be short today because of that so we'll see. Fingers crossed. Thanks so much! Xx

[jessmum46]

Don't worry if they're short - make it your aim today to have her down at the set times and consider that a success, no matter how long the naps . Holding your hand x

[jcsmom]

Thanks so much. I really appreciate your support. Xx

[jcsmom]

An update. Nap at 10- 38 mins. Nap at 2:15 26 mins. So if I put her down "early" at 6:30 her total awake time for the day will be 10.5 hrs. Assuming tonight will be a blow out.