Wind down ideas for 2 spirited siblings sharing a room

[Khalam's Mama]

I am having trouble winding down my boys at the end of the day and would love some ideas to help calm them.

At present we do bath, supper, stories, in to bed, a song. But this is followed by up to an hr of jumping around and giggling etc. they have shared a room for a year, it is mainly since B (25mo) old went to a bbb a month ago but it is not settling at all. I have taken to staying with them as otherwise it is wiwo for an hr which is even more stimulating. I have recently tried stories on cd but they just yell over it. I have tried soft music in the background and varying bt from 30 min earlier to 30min later with no improvement.

It is better if I can split bt but am alone for bt more often than not as dh works shifts so it is hard as B will only do 10hr nights (plus nap) and K (4) does 12hrs so b is too small to be left alone while I put k down easily. I have also tried no nap for b and this is better as I can split bt but he can't do more than a day of this yet before major OT so I need a plan until I can split it for good.

I am sure they are OS at bt but I don't know what to do to help them relax.

Any advice welcome esp btdt with 2 kids together. Thanks.

[Khalam's Mama]

What do twinnie mums do?

[my3girlsjde]

Is there any way you can set up a divider in the room? I find spiriteds settle easier when they can't see each other. Or anything else for.that matter. Is their room darkened?

We did at one point have all 3 girls in the same room . Recently we've moved D into her own room as she couldn't settle with Jo talking herself to sleep

Before when it was the two of them alone, I had their beds set up so they couldn't see each other over their headboards and since they really got used to and liked having me in there while they fell asleep I would threaten to leave if they didn't stay in their beds or kept speaking after lights out. It was still rough but yes I had to be in there. We used white noise until recently to muffle the abrupt noises in the room.

I know it's hard and monotonous and tiring. I agree with the same bedtime because that saves you from leaving to check on one which is too stimulating to the other. The girls have learned to leave E to sleep in the mornings and they do try hard.

Any chance they can go in their rooms for quiet time with the lights on? Ie. no jumping around but they can chat for a while and giggle but not get too wound up. Being that bedtime is a huge transition for spiriteds and it's generally hard for them to 'switch off' perhaps the transition into their bed can be dealt with before it's actually bedtime iykwim.

[Khalam's Mama]

The room is darkened. The top of b bed and the side of k stop them seeing each other if they are in bed. I threaten to leave but they just can't help themselves and when I do leave I have to keep going back in to stop them misbehaving which is a big game, jumping on the bed, biting, getting all the books off etc.
I can try the quiet time before bt. I fear they will not be trusted in there alone, I highly doubt they would lie and chat though.

[my3girlsjde]

Hmmm.....will do more thinking and come back.

[Khalam's Mama]

B is getting better but k is getting worse. They are overall getting to bed earlier but I still dread bt. They were happy to just play before bed but wouldn't stay in bed with the light on or off. K has been getting up earlier. I am wondering if he is ut. I have realised he drops his sleep needs every yr and his birthday is next week. Hard to tell though when he will sleep if he goes to bed alone, so can't be too ut???

[my3girlsjde]

I wouldn't think he's too ut unless he's starting to give you some ridiculous EW's.

This is one of the main reasons I put D in her own room and left J and E together. Two of them together is such a challenge to be able to 'switch off'. But it does get easier. At one point, I removed the knobs from the dresser drawers, and absolutely everything from their rooms aside from bed, mattress, blankets and nightlight. And even that was used as a missile sometimes in the middle of the night

When they're toddlers, you can sit in the room and simply keep putting them back in their bed without saying anything and after a few olympic nights of doing it they figure it out. When they're around 4.5 years, you can have a discussion about it. In between it pretty tough. We had some pretty rough nights with the girls in the middle years. Even E still needs me to sit with her and make sure she doesn't get up. She's getting better but she's still trying. And she's an angel.

Do they bath at night? I remember reading that for spiriteds the bath can wind them up and we certainly found that when the girls were younger. Now if we do baths at night we make sure hair is dry before they go to sleep. Otherwise their temperature has dropped too much and it stimulates them. Baths/showers during the day work much better.

I think I would keep with the earlier bedtime so they're not ot/os before you even get in there. It also gets YOU in there before you're getting frazzled and dreading another bedtime.

Just out of curiousity though, what would happen if they were left to their own devices though? ie no parent involvement unless things were going crazy in there? Would they eventually get bored and go to sleep? I have a friend that did this with her spirited and swears by it. But that was one kid in one room. I don't know if I'm brave enough to try it with two :/

[Khalam's Mama]

When b was in his cot I did this and after lots of messing around they slept but it did not get any less than an he after weeks of it. Now he is out of the cot I tried this but he gets in bed with k and bites him, climbs over the gate, jumps upland down in the cot which breaks the slats or throws toys at k. I could move all the toys out but have nowhere else to put them and he would use a pillow or covers or strip etc to get something to dash. I have been taking them up last minute and it is slightly better. They do not bath every night but when I work I can't bath them in the day. They were the best they ever are last night though and that was after a bath. I think it is a habit now because even splitting bt they were awful sat night  which used to be fine. K slept 12 hrs though so he must be tired.

[creations]

KM I've lurked a little wishing I had some advice for you, then I found this
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Floppy-Sleep-Game-Book-Audio/dp/0399532005/ref=sr_1_17?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1371763837&sr=1-17&keywords=importance+of+bedtime
it's a book and CD for relaxation at BT. I haven't used it but the reviews appear very positive (amazon.com has more reviews than amazonUK).  I think many people use it to teach independent sleep, which isn't needed in your case but I just thought maybe having a relaxation CD to listen to together and do the floppy exercises, might keep them in bed and focused on something?  The new one is pretty expensive (IMO) for a CD that you don't know will work but there seems to be reasonable prices on the used ones.

[Khalam's Mama]

That looks good. The mp3 download is cheap enough. I will try it.
Although I have cut b nap and started telling k he can do x in the morning if he sleeps quickly and the last couple nights have been earlier at least. I don't like the rewards but after a month of deterioration it is the best response so far.

[creations]

I also wonder if K is old enough now to understand a book (aimed at kids) on the importance of sleep? How it effects our bodies and helps our body to mend, get stronger, improve brain function etc  It amazes me how much my DS takes in and understands from books, and how it influences his speech and behaviour etc and he is much younger.  I don't know if DS would understand such a book yet, but it's something i am considering starting a hunt for to see what is out there that might be suitable.  Something that they could read during the day, not at necessarily at bed time, so the info sinks in?  Just a thought.
I get you on the rewards, I've said to DS a couple of times we will only be able to go out the next day if he sleeps well enough because without sleep I know he will be a total mess with OT and I've told him it would be unfair to put him through that struggle on too little sleep. It not quite reward ...but it kind of is yk, and the main point about whether HE sees it as reward/punishment is likely that he does But the truth is I can't drag him around on a big day out if he is tried.

[Khalam's Mama]

Yes I try to dress it up a a natural consequence but it is on the punishment/ reward continuum regardless
We have always discussed how we need sleep to be strong and fast and grow tall and be able to be kind and not grumpy and k will quote it when b doesn't let him go to sleep of he is tired lol

[creations]

k will quote it when b doesn't let him go to sleep

very cute!

[Khalam's Mama]

So several weeks on and we are in exactly the same place. K liked the floppy exercises but b was not interested. And as soon as they finished it was back to jumping around again.
B will not even stay in his bed when I am right there So I am still having to put him back many many times. K waits until B is nearly asleep and then he makes a loud noise somehow to wake him. We talk a lot out of the moment about what happens if we don't sleep enough and how mummy gets grumpy etc i point out Bs behavior when he is tired like fighting, not sharing, behaving in a way that causes us to stop playing or leave somewhere etc and K says he will help B to sleep earlier and go to sleep himself etc but in the moment nothing changes.
I have cut Bs nap to mostly no nap and the odd 30min one when he is struggling every few days but he is averaging less than 11hrs sleep.
I feel it is a habit now as they are tired and ok but as soon as we go in it is like a cue to go wild. I did stories on my bed in an attempt to change things up but it was the same story. Maybe I will try some really loud white noise lol

[creations]

Really sorry to hear there's no change
All I can offer is a ((hug)) and vibes that something changes soon x