About to lose my mind

[RosiesMom]

Please help! Any suggestions are much appreciated! Rosie will be 6 months tomorrow and she is still waking at least twice a night and she almost always has 30 min naps. I spent a whole week trying to sleep train her about a month ago. At that time I was sometimes successful with extending naps if I put my hands on her and helped transition to the next sleep cycle but not every time. That week I had my MIL here to help entertain my 2 yr old but after she left I could no longer spend that much time on it. I was hoping her body would learn through that week but apparently it didn't.
Now when she wakes after 30-40 minutes nap I go in and try to get her back to sleep but she usually cries the whole time and sometimes after 30 minutes of crying she will go back to sleep for 30-60 minutes (but it's rare). I have tried all kinds of different awake lengths. If she does get a long nap one day then I try to do exactly the same thing the next day but it doesn't work. The worst part is that her crying wakes up my 2 yr old from her nap and then I'm dealing with a grumpy toddler who wants snuggling.
What I'm most confused about is that she falls asleep great. She doesn't fight the naps and falls asleep on her own. She also does great falling asleep in her crib at night yet wakes multiple times.
While trying sleep training I did the dream feed and she would sleep worse. She would only sleep an hour after the DF, I would shush/rub back for until calm and then show would wake up an hour later. It continued that way the rest of the night. I gave it a whole week and saw no improvement so I stopped. Now she wakes twice usually. I feed her the first time and have to let her cry it out for the second wake.
I have come to face the facts that I will never again get a good night sleep and that, though I am young, I will forever have bags/dark circles under my eyes. But for the sake of my family (particularly my 2yr old) I am determined to figure out this daytime schedule.
Today is a good example of a bad day

Woke up at 6:45 and nursed
9:25 nap until 9:55. Tried getting back to sleep. Gave up after 30 minutes.
Nursed at 10:40. Fussed and was on/off several times. Was more interested in just laying in my arms with pacifier.
12:45 nap until 1:25. Tried getting back to sleep. She was VERY mad and I gave up after 30 minutes.
Now she is relaxing in the swing and rubbing her eyes but smiling at me.
I should say that she usually is happy when she wakes from 30 minute nap but gets very upset when I try to get her back to sleep.
Do I give up? I hate making her cry for so long and I hate how it upsets my 2yr old. My mind is exhausted from going over schedules and times over and over in my head. I worry this lack of good sleep is really going to affect her and me.

[RosiesMom]

Just wanted to add that she has now fallen asleep in the swing after being awake for a little over an hour. This is a look at a fairly good day.

6:45 wake up
E 6:55
A 6:45 till 9:11
S 9:11 for 30 minutes. Wakes up playing in crib. I went in after about 10 minutes and assisted back to sleep. (this time only cried for about 5 minutes) slept for another 1.5 hrs! Woohoo!
E 11:30
A 11:30 until 2:00
S 2:00 nap until 2:35 tried assisting back to sleep for 25 minutes. Then gave up.
E 3:50 but falling asleep some while nursing
S 5:25 nap 35 minutes
S 6:45
7:30 bedtime

[weaver]

Hi there!
Lack of sleep is the worst.  I'm an absolute monster on low sleep, so you have my sympathies.  I also know all about how hard it is to keep a toddler entertained with a baby to attend to as well, but it is possible.

I'm wondering if Rosie is undertired. She's going to sleep well for naps (which is brilliant, you've accomplished something there) but waking up after a short nap and refusing to go back down.  That's classic undertired to me.  Average A times at around 6 months is 2.5 to 3 hours (see link below), but that is an average so your baby may go shorter or longer.

The other issue is that most babies drop the catnap around 5 or 6 months.  Keeping it is giving her too many opportunities to sleep during the day and, perhaps because she's sleeping late, it might be disrupting her daytime and nightime sleep.  The good news is, if you drop the catnap, then you've one less nap to worry about and less disruption to your 2 yo. 

An important thing to remember is that if you make a change, try to hold it for a couple of days to allow Rosie to get used to it (unless it's obviously a disaster!). 

Have a look at these links and see what you think:
Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!!
All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months
How can I sleep-train a second baby when I have a toddler running around?

And the final thing is to .... take it easy on yourself and your baby.  Many BW mamas give themselves a set amount of time to try to extend a nap (10, 20, 30 minutes) and then they stop and get on with the day.  Sure, you have to cope with the fall out from a short nap but that's much easier if you're in the fresh air or having a cup of coffee. 

There are a couple of things in there - hope some of that helps.

[RosiesMom]

Thanks for the reply. I have been stretching her A time even though she often shows signs of tiredness after just 2 hrs but I haven't seen any improvement in the length of nap. I will continue to aim for 3 hrs and see if it eventually works.  But there's no way to drop that 3rd nap if she only has these 30 minute naps, right?
What would you recommend is the maximum amount of time to be awake before bedtime?
Today she only had a total of 2hrs in naps and yet she just woke up crying after being in bed for 2hrs. That can't be under tired, right?

[RosiesMom]

More questions:
Yesterday I was able to get Rosie to have 2 hr 50min A time and she had 1hr30min nap. Next A was the same but only had 47 min nap. That was progress! So today I did the same but only got 30 min morning nap. I didn't want her to be overtired so I shortened A time to 2 1/2 hrs but she still only napped 30 minutes. Woke up happy (until I tried getting her back to sleep.
So my question is.. How long would you make A time after a short nap if she can normally be up around 3hrs?
Here it is 2:30pm and she has had a total of 1hr sleep since 7:00am. (And not good nighttime sleep) Ugh!

[weaver]

Here it is 2:30pm and she has had a total of 1hr sleep since 7:00am. (And not good nighttime sleep) Ugh!

Ugh and yuck, sorry to hear that!  On the under/over tired question, it is possible that she's undertired for the first nap and then overtired for the second and third, and bedtime, I suppose.  Yes, they like to keep us guessing.

Great that she did that long nap for you yesterday. Any notion if there was something different?  If she does a short nap, usually folks shorten the next A time.   I'd maybe aim for around 2 hours and see how she looks.  If you try to put her down and she resists in a 'I'm not tired' sort of way, take her word for it.  Let her up and try again after 15 or 20 minutes.

But there's no way to drop that 3rd nap if she only has these 30 minute naps, right?

I think you need to drop that nap in order to sort those naps out, because it is creating an expectation, a habit, in her of a certain pattern of sleep.  She can scrape by with three 30 minutes naps but if one of them goes, then she will (hopefully) make the sleep up elsewhere.  I'm not sure if you had time to read those links, so I'm pasting in part of the 3-2 transition link below which explains a bit more.

How do I do it? (drop the catnap)

Your LO needs to increase their A time to around 3 hours. This needs to be done slowly at 10/15 minutes every couple of days to allow your LO to get used to the increase in A time- otherwise they will get over tired. Once your LO’s A time is around 3 hours across the day you will be able to drop the cat nap and move to 2 naps. Some LOs may be able to drop the nap on less than 3 hours A time if their naps are longer, or they are doing a longer night. This is the perfect world example of the sort of thing you are looking at:

A: 7am-10am
S: 10:00-11:30
A: 11:30-2:30
S: 2:30-4pm
A: 4pm-7pm

During the transition period you will get to the point where there isn’t time for the CN- but the time to bed is too long- leading to an OT baby!! During all transitions there is going to be some over tiredness but some tools you can use are:

- Early Bed time: Sometimes dropping the cat nap and bringing bed time forward by as much as an hour can help to fend off OT;
-Capping the CN rather than dropping it altogether: Sometimes if there isn’t time for a full cat nap a short catch up nap in the car of 15/20 minutes can help get them through to bed time without making them UT.

Once the transition is done you’ll be rewarded with one less nap to worry about and the freedom of more time to get out and about with your LO without worrying about the naps!!

If you want to chat to other mums going through the same thing as you please check out the 3-2 chat and support thread in the Naps board!

[RosiesMom]

Thank you so much for the response. I think you are right about dropping the CN. I guess I'm just scared. I did read those links and it all makes sense but seems impossible to apply it to her. If she is done with her second nap as early as maybe 1:30 or 2 then what would her bedtime be? The link said to have as early as an hour before regular BT but that would mean she would be awake potentially 4 or 5 hrs. Then again I can't imagine putting her to bed after 3hrs which would 4:30 or 5:00?!?!
Maybe it will seem more possible on a day where she actually has at least one good nap.
Today was a little strange. She had 3hrs awake,30 min nap, 2.5 awake, 30 min awake, then I set her in the swing while I sat in front of her (actually typing my earlier post) and an hour later she fell asleep for 1.5hrs. That had her awake at 4:30 and in bed at 7:30. It worked but not sure what it means for the night. I guess we will see.
By the way, it is so great to hear advice specifically for me. Sometimes you can read all this advice but it seems so general-if ya know what I mean. So thanks so much for taking the time to help!

[weaver]

It's scary!  But it works! 

Yes, the first day will have a very scary A to BT. How early for EBT (early bedtime) depends on your baba.  Some babies are fantastic at 'tacking on' extra hours to  night sleep and making up, and some aren't.  You have to trust your instinct.  The main thing is, once you decide to drop that CN you need to stick with it so she doesn't get back into the old habit.  Basically, you're teaching her something new so you need to repeat it for her and help her to learn.

 

2.5 awake, 30 min awake, then I set her in the swing while I sat in front of her (actually typing my earlier post) and an hour later she fell asleep for 1.5hrs.

Interesting!  She took an opportunity to sleep.  Another reason for short naps, sometimes, is overstimulation so you might think about the sorts of things she's doing before nap time, and try to make it really low key in the 20 minutes or so before nap time.  Might help, can't hurt!

And you are very very welcome.  All the mamas on here have had help at one time, so we're just giving back to the community we love!