7 month old naps gone wrong - more A time AGAIN?!

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Hi,

I've spent the last 3 months continually upping my 7 month olds A times and I can't believe he might need more but we're getting some funny old naps at the moment.  I'd appreciate another pair of eyes on what he's up to.....

A couple of weeks ago he was doing well with me putting him down for naps after 3hrs 20/25, though I guess he was starting to take longer to fall asleep and we had the odd short nap (e.g. in the afternoon if he'd had a good morning nap).  Then he started struggling to settle at bedtime and a couple of days ago we had a 45 minute morning nap. Then yesterday we had this:

WU: 5.45 (he'd actually slept through for the first time.  Bedtime had been 7pm).
E: 6ozs at 6am
A: 3 hrs 35 (pd at 3hrs 30)
E: Breakfast @ 8.30ish
S: 9.20 - 10.05 (45 mins)

E: 6oz at 10.15
A: 3hrs 15
E: Lunch @ 12ish
E: 2oz @ 1ish
S: 1.20 - 2.10 (50 mins)

E: 4oz @ 3.15
E: Tea @ 4.30
A: About 4 hours 
E: 5/6 oz @ 5.45
S: by 6.10. This was the earliest we could manage.

Nf@ 4 but then wouldn't resettle for 2 hours  Back to sleep by 6am and up again at 7.45.

Today I upped his morning A time - he'd normally need a bit more after such a long night, even with the long nw. I put him down at 3hrs 40. He didn't seem tired beforehand but settled immediately.  He only slept 40 minutes. I tried to resettle him but he went mental so I didn't try for long cos I could see it wasn't happening.  He's happy enough now if he has attention or an interesting toy but a bit grouchy if not.  He's been like that lately though - I think he's getting a bit bored of the same old toys and scenes cos if I give him something new he's happy again.

The only other thing going on is he's cutting a tooth - the third in the last month.  I suspect another will appear in the next week or so.  He's had bad naps when he's had meds as well though so not sure if it's relevant or not.

So, should I carry on upping his A time?  It already seems high but long night wakings and 40-50 minute naps have always meant UT for him in the past....  Any thoughts?

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Just a quick update.... The grumpiness earlier improved after lunch so may have been hunger.  Not sure.  Anyway,  we went out for the afternoon and he fell asleep in the buggy after 3 hours,  slept for 30 minutes and woke up very happy!  He then did 3 hrs 5 before bed and settled for bed really nicely

So just to complete the picture,  here's today:

Wu @ 7.45
E: 6ozs @ 8.30
E: breakfast@ 10
E: 2ozs @ 11
A: 3hrs 40
S: 11.30 - 12.13 (43 minutes)

E: lunch @ 12.45
E: 3ozs @ 3
A: 3hrs
S: 3.15 - 3.45

E: tea @ 5
E: 5ozs @ 6.45
A: 3hrs 10
S: pd @ 6.55

We'll see how tonight goes but he went to sleep a happy boy at least

ETA: Well.... He slept solidly til 5.20am last night then woke up happy. I fed him after a bit but he wouldn't go back to sleep.  I eventually got him up at 6.30 but only into our room which was dark so we didn't play til 7ish.  I tried putting him down at 9.35 but he didn't seem tired really - he'd been in the cot, car or highchair for his entire A time.  He went straight to sleep but woke after 40 minutes again.  I was determined to resettle him and it took 45 minutes but then had to wake him after 1hr 45.  So now I'm thinking the 40 minute naps could be OT?  Or in the past we've had 35-40 minute naps which have been due to background OT but being UT for the nap so not able to get past it.  So it could be that?

Anyway, thought I'd update to give the full picture.  At least he's sort of STTN now, which is new, even if it's resulting in a short night....!  I'm not sure when to pd after these EWs though?

[weaver]

Or in the past we've had 35-40 minute naps which have been due to background OT but being UT for the nap so not able to get past it.  So it could be that?

Absolutely,  the dreaded UT/OT loop!  And that is all about the balance of A time and sleep in the day.

If he's teething he could get up to all sorts of strange sleep behaviour.  It does looks like he has low-ish sleep needs but I would be very cautious about continuously pushing up A times.   I would go slowly on increasing A times, try to hold steady on a new A time (unless you're getting UT naps), to avoid OT, particularly as he's doing two very short naps. I'm assuming he was doing 1.5hours for each one until quite recently? It may be that you need to tweak the balance of the day - so different A times between the different naps, probably a shorter one to the second nap, for instance.  The 'best' time for the longest A time seems to vary a lot between babies, for some it's the first one in the morning, for others the middle of the day, or the time to bed. 

For us EWs were almost always because of 'late' bedtimes (even if they didn't seem so late), so keep BT early as you can and see if that helps.

[TB9]

If it helps, dd2 has been doing 4hrs A, 1.5-2hr nap, 3.5hrs A, cn, 2hr45min/3hrs A before bed.  On the days she needs to go down for he am nap earlier I just do her day backwards

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Thanks weaver and Tink.  I think a longer first A does suit Jack better.  He usually needs 15 minutes less for his second A.  They'd started being the same just before everything went wrong which is another sign I probably need to up his first A time. 

I probably wasn't very clear before though - when I say continually upping A's I don't mean on a daily basis.  I've only increased 1 A at a time and held for 3 days before increasing another one but to adjust a whole day takes about a week that way and then it seems a week or two later he's ready for more!  But yes, he was doing 1hr 20 naps before things went wrong.  I was starting to have to wake him from his second nap though, often after 45 minutes or so cos it was getting too close to bedtime.

Today has been weird - with that resettle and then long nap we only had time for a very short cn to tide him over til bed - he couldn't even stretch to an EBT which is what he really needs.  So I'm keeping the A time between the cn and bed to 2.5 hours to see if that helps.

I'm not sure what to do tomorrow though if we get another EW.  I tried holding off til 9.30ish this morning but his A time was so low key I'm not sure if it was enough?!    Should I try 3hrs 30 after getting him up or something?   Or hold him off til 10?  Or just put him down when he seems tired?!  he didn't really seem tired before his nap this morning, and whinged when I put him in his sleeping bag which is another sign he's not ready for his nap usually.

[TB9]

If we get an ew, its usually after she sleeps through like you said J did when he woke at 5:45.  In that case I just try to get her as close to 10am for her nap as possible.

I feel like I am always upping her A as well, but now that she is on this schedule with one good nap and a cn, I am hoping that we can stick with it for awhile

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Yeah, I tried holding onto the last routine for too long I think!  I've known for a while that UT signs were creeping in but I just didn't really believe it.  It's interesting to know your DD2 can do 4 hours in the morning though.  I don't think Jack's quite ready for 4 hours yet - he's always needed slightly lower A's than your DD I think - but I suspect he's heading that way.

I think I'll try holding him off a bit longer tomorrow and seeing if that helps, unless he clearly needs a nap before then.  If it doesn't then at least I'll have tried!

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Well we had a better night last night - his nf was at 3.30, and he settled straight after it and slept til 6.15. He settled fine last night with 2.5 hrs A time after a 15 minute cat nap.  He woke up very happy so I thought I'd try putting him down at 3 hrs 40 A time again (actually pd just before this).  He yawned after about 3 hrs 20 but was happy enough after that and no other tired signs. He slept 34 minutes and woke up very crossly,  though was happy once I got him up and while we were out,  though he fell asleep in the car after only 2 hrs 30ish A time

So should I try 3 hrs 40 again for that first A tomorrow to give it the full 3 days,  or increase again to 3 hrs 50?

[weaver]

You know Jack the best but could 34 minutes be an OT nap, do you think?  I'm wondering because he woke up cross and was ready for another nap in a shorter time than usual after.

[TB9]

I am wondering if the 2.5hrs A after 15min cn was too much 

[LovelyLilyandJack]

I have wondered before if 34 minutes is OT and the way he woke up would suggest that.  He has been a bit whiney lately but only in that he's getting bored quicker than he used to. He's fine if he's getting attention or has something to play with.  In the past when he's done 35-38 minute naps an A time increase has sorted it but I'm open to trying anything! Actually, we got in a bit of a pickle at around 4 months with short naps and I had to reduce his A times to sort it and then he could handle me trying to increase them once he'd stopped being OT. So maybe that's happened again?

The last A time we had which worked was 3 hrs 20 but when I tried that a few days ago I was getting 45 minute naps.  Should I go back to trying that again do you think or try something different?

[weaver]

I think Tink might be the expert on this sort of thing but I would be tempted to do 3hr 20 in the morning and tweak the other times a bit.  What do you think?

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Yeah, definitely worth a go!  Today has been a wreck - that 10 minute nap in the car has thrown his afternoon nap and he's had just under 45 minutes and woken just now at 3.05. I'm going to see if he resettles easily but if not go for 6pm bedtime which is about the earliest I can manage....

ETA: He did actually resettle quite easily and was asleep again by 3.25. So i think I'll let him sleep til 4 then do bedtime at 7?  Or 6.45?

[TB9]

I think Tink might be the expert on this sort of thing

Bahaha!  Why me, lol

I would try 3hr40min for one more day, and if it isnt working for him then stick with a shorter A time and try to get his pm nap on track as Anne suggested.

For today I would be tempted to let him sleep another 45min, then do bed for 7/7:15ish?  I am finding with dd that she is close to needing a 13hr day

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Yeah jack rarely does more than an 11 hour night

I'm afraid I didn't see your message in time so he had 35-40 minutes more sleep.  He was very sensitive when I woke him.... For about 10 minutes lol!  Then he played happily by himself for half an hour while I cooked dinner. I think I'll aim for 6.45 but stretch him til 7 if he seems ok? Though he always does seem ok tbh!

And yes,  tomorrow I'll try 3 hrs 40 again and see what he does.  I should be able to resettle tomorrow if need be cos my husband is around. If I manage to resettle him for a nap,  do I reduce his next A time or not?  Sometimes it takes 45 minutes to resettle so is that one nap or two?!