Can WI/WO suddenly stop being effective? Please help - don't know what to do!

[*Becky*]

I agree about not starting sleep training if your DH is ill, I doubt another week or so will make a difference tbh.

It could be some form of SA which comes and goes and is quite common. The best thing to do is stay consistent with the bedtime approach and see what happens. You did nothing wrong in the incident you refer to, yes she cried a lot but you were there the whole time. It could be that but it could also be one of these phases that toddlers go through. There is a big sleep regression at 18 months and that could be playing a part too. hugs xx

[Hayleys]

Thank you - that's very reassuring!!

There have been a few things which have happened over the course of the last week or so which have been quite baffling. Firstly sometimes it can take her a long time to fall asleep at bedtime. The other day it actually took her 2 hrs!! I am still AP ing her to sleep and usually it does not take longer than 30 mins. Actually over the course of the last few weeks there has been times when this has happened but then stops for a while.

Generally her night sleep is all over the place right now and in the night she can maybe only get around 9 hrs perhaps (she usually needs 11 hrs). This means that often she is tired in the morning but she lasts until her nap at 12 pm and she has a good nap length. During the last week there has been a pattern where she has been having a terrible night of perhaps only 7 hrs maybe and our routine has gone all over the place the next day but then she has had a great nights sleep and either slept through the night or just woken in the early part on the evening.  However on the occassions she has had such good night sleep there have been problems with her going down for her nap. The first time, it wasn't really a problem but I noticed that she took longer to fall asleep! Today though I went to put her down at 12 and she just wasn't cuddling into me as she would usually when I pick her up. I remember someone telling me on this site that sometimes if the night is better than usual then the nap time may need to be later so I left it for another half an hour. She had been awake since 6:30 so I thought that 12:30 should be more than enough time. She settlled
on me more as I was carrying her up the stairs and she had seemed more tired than at 12. She the. Was crying as I put her in the cot. I sat next to the cot and she settled after about 20 mins.

Do you think she could have been under tired? Her nap is the only thing which is going well sleep wise right now so I really hope that does not start to go wonky too!

Any ideas?

[*Becky*]

sounds like she is making up for lost night sleep with the nap...which is ok to a point but not when night sleep is only 7-9 hours. What have the last 2 days looked like EAS wise?

[Hayleys]

Yes you are right I think she has!  She has had a cough though and this has really affected her night sleep.  I think this goes some way to explain the bad night s which we tend to have right now, but at the same time I don’t think it explains it all.  Also I don’t feel that she is teething at the moment, when she wakes she isn’t crying with the scream she has been doing and it feels different at the moment.

There is a definite theme at the moment of her having a good nights sleep, followed by a bad night and then a good night etc.  That’s why I’m wondering if her EAS may just need adjusting.  So, I’m just trying to remember the last few days of EAS.

WU: 6:30

S: 11:30 – 3:30 ( put her down early as she was absolutely shattered from having a bad nights sleep the night before.  I also did wake her after 3 hrs)

BT 7pm (feel asleep very quickly and slept through the night.  Cried when I tried to give her the bottle and took a while for her to accept it).

WU: 6:30 am

S 12:30 (did not seem very tired, perhaps after the good nights sleep and feel asleep at 12:50.  She was crying as I put her in the cot which is very unusual nowadays. I actually woke her at 2:25 as I was worried about her not going to sleep at bedtime. Not sure if I should have done that?).

BT 7 pm (She fell asleep quickly, only took 15 mins.  However, I think a noise next door woke her after 40 min.  It then took 2 hours for her to fall asleep.  As I transferred her to her cot she woke again and it took another hour for her to fall asleep again.  She then sleep solidly for 11:30 pm – 4:45 pm.  At this point I could hear her coughing for perhaps half an hour and she then work at 7 am.

I’m going to keep a record of what happens over the next few days and I’ll let you know.  Like I said, her cold has been affecting her but I also feel that something else is going on.  It’s highly unusual for her to take so long to fall asleep at bed.  This seems to be happening a lot recently and also long night wakes, regardless of if she is ill or not.  I do feel that if she was getting a better night sleep of 11 hrs then her nap time of 12 pm would not be suitable.  Do you think she may need a later naptime in the long run? Also how long should a nap usually last? I worry about her sleep too late in the day and then not going down at night. 

If there are tweaks needed in her routine then it would be good to get it in place before I start the sleep training again as I do think that perhaps the problems I’ve been having may be due to her being UT or OT?

Any ideas?

[Hayleys]

The other thing is my husband is much better now and I feel I do have more time and energy to start the sleep training again. The only thing is it is so soon to Christmas now and we are away for a few days. Do you think I should wait until after Christmas now so I can be consistent with it as while we are away I think it will be very difficult while we are staying at somebody else's house. In the past she has usually bounced back to going to sleep independently in a few days though.

Also I'm wondering if you do think that her routine needs tweaking at all if it is worth doing that first as she may respond better to the sleep training.

Any ideas?

[*Becky*]

I would def wait until after xmas...just too many things going on at this time of year and once you start you need to be consistent.

As for the routine - IMO it is hard to see what is really going on with the variations in nap time etc. So the first day you gave her a 3 hour nap and she did a 12.5 hour day and then STTN. That is great - hard to tell if it was a catch up from before but it makes me think a 2.5-3 hour nap is ideal.

If it were me I would just set a naptime at this age. So for a 17 month old waking at 6.30am I would go for 12/12.30pm. Then BT can be adjusted slightly depending on wake up or you can just go for 7pm. It will be a lot easier to see what is going on if her routine is fairly set. What do you think?

[Hayleys]

Hi!

Sorry I didn't explain what had happened over the last few days clearly enough. Her routine was very different to usual due to the bad nights we have been getting. So on the first day I put her down for her nap at 11:30 as she was so tired and she did have that long sleep as she was catching up due to lack of night sleep. On the second day, I tried to put her down at her usual set nap time of 12 pm but she didn't seem tired (she had had an 11 hr night) so I tried again at 12:30.

Usually we do have a set nap time of 12 pm and then a set nap time of 7 pm. Wake up time is usually between 6 and 6:30 am. Since she has transitioned to 1 nap (at around 13 months we haven't really been having good nights. Some spells have been better than others and I do think teething has played a part. At times she has been having long night wakes and now they just seem to be getting worse. Our one the other night was an epic 4 hour one (coughing was playing a part in the though).

There was a time a few months ago that I could settle her in the night with either gradual retreat or WI/WO. Sometimes it would take 5 mins other times perhaps an hour and a half but is it was a long time she would mainly be laying down and trying to drift back to sleep. Then after illness and 3 molars later we gave been having such problems.

Her night sleep has never been ideal and it has always been quite rare for her to sleep through the night. I didn't wean her from a feed in the night until she was around 14 and a half months si she would always wake for this. I thought that after doing so she would start to sleep through but unfortunately not. It's since then she has been having some long night wakes which never featured in the past.

I'm really hoping that we can get back on track after Christmas or in fact have more regular tines if her sleeping through - I'm feeling really tired now. Perhaps her routine is fine though as I have been doing what you suggested. Like I said the last few EAS days are way off what we do.

Perhaps it would be helpful for me to keep a log of our EAS with night wakes and see what you think? It may give a clearer picture. 

[*Becky*]

yes do that for 2-3 days and then I can take a look. When you feel ready to ST let's do that as that can mess up a routine i.e. it can be hard to really see what is going on if lo is not an independent sleeper x

[Hayleys]

Hi!

Yes it makes sense that there will be a more accurate picture when she is going to sleep independently! She has actually started to sleep much better at night and there has been a big improvement. It's been hard for me to get a good look in her mouth but it looks like her last molar in the first set has come down now. I'm not completely sure if it has fully cut but it certainly has moved! So perhaps this explains the better nights!

However since she has been having more night sleep, she has started to get upset at nap time. I'm not sure if this is because the nap time is not accurate now or if this is a phase (she is still crying just before I give her the night bottle too).  So I thought I'd just post how the last few days have been to see if there is anything obvious to you.
EASY
19/12/13
WU 7 am ( after a very difficult night where she perhaps only had 8 hrs sleep).
S: Went down fine for her nap at 12:20. Woke her up after a 2 hr nap at 2:20 pm, was woken did not wake naturally
BT: 7 pm (fell asleep at 7:20 pm)

20/12/13
WU 6:30 am (woke crying and upset after having an 11hr solid sleep, think she was still catching up on sleep though after some difficult nights).
S: At 12 pm she didn't seem to be tired so I left it until 12:25 pm. She was crying as I took her up the stairs and put her in the cot. Fell asleep at 12:40 the. Woke naturally and happily at 2:50 pm (2 hr 10 min sleep).
BT 7 pm (fell asleep at 7:30 pm).

21/12/13
WU: 6:05 (woke happy after a 10.5 hr solid sleep)
S: Cried when trying to take her up the stairs at 12:10. Cried in her cot but asleep by 12:20. Naturally woke at 2pm (a 1 hr 40 min sleep).
BT: 7pm (fell asleep at 7:40 pm)

Woke at 23:00. Only took 10 mins to fall back to sleep though!

22/12/13
WU 6:10 am (wasn't crying but didn't wake up chatting. She had pooed when I went into the room though)!

So usually her nap time is set at 12 pm. She has seemed tired in the morning but at around 12 is is quite awake and happily playing. I was experimenting to see if a later nap time would help but it hasn't seemed to have made a difference. She seems to be waking closer to 6 instead of 6:30 so I'm not sure of the best nap time to set at her age, she is 17 months now. Also when we were having a lot of problems during the night a while ago I started to cap her nap at 2 hrs as I thought at the time that any longer was interfering with her night sleep. I'm not sure if this was the case though. Do you think I should just let her sleep for as long as she needs now so we can get a better picture? If it nears to 3 pm then I start to worry that she won't go down for 7 pm. Although the other day she did and then slept through the night! I noticed that although she woke happily she was still very tired on this day after her nap!

Finally I just want to add that when she was going to sleep independently at bedtime she was taking about 30 mins to fall asleep, the same as now I am AP ing her to sleep. At nap times she has been settling herself in the cot and I have been in the room while she is crying.

I'm not sure what to make of her routine right now but I'm wondering if she may need a later nap time and therefore a shorter A time before bed? However her WU has started to get earlier. Do you have any ideas?

[Hayleys]

Hi!

Just want to add that I put her down for her nap at 12:20, I decided to wait a little later again. She went down without any problems at all and fell asleep within minutes! Not sure what to make of it as her WU time and nap time was similar to yesterday really. Although she did wake last night it was only for about 10 mins so I can't see it would have make a huge difference. I'll wait and see what her nap length is like though! X

Any ideas?

[Hayleys]

It's funny how I mentioned nap length in my last post as she actually woke after 1hr 15 mins. This is highly unusual! Could she have been UT even though she went down fine for her nap?

If you get this in time, would you still do a 7 pm bedtime?

[*Becky*]

I would still do a 7pm BT yes, in fact I would keep BT fairly set and I would do a 12pm nap for now and keep it like that for at least a week. Then we can see if she needs a later naptime...how does that sound? Obviously if she is fussing a lot at 12pm then do 12.30pm but keep it like that for 5 days minimum x

[Hayleys]

Hi

Thanks! I'll do that! What do you think I should do for nap length though? Should I leave her to sleep for as long as she needs and not cap it, only wake her if it gets to the 3 hr mark?

[*Becky*]

I would start with that seeing as she is only 17 months...unless you know she has always been less than average sleep needs? I must admit neither of mine did 3 hour naps, DS we capped at 2 and DD at 2.5 but 3 hours is v common when they first go to 1 nap x

[Hayleys]

As a baby her sleep A times were always average and she fitted in really well to the recommended baby whisperer A times.  Then around a year she seemed to be needing a longer A time before her morning nap and since we have set the nap, I've no idea what her sleep needs are really.  I'll let her sleep for as long as she needs and then post back with how it has all gone.  She will only do a 3 hour sleep if her nights have been awful! At the moment the nights seem to be going quite well, considering how it has been so I think she will be waking well before the 3 hr mark!

Thanks!!