Can WI/WO suddenly stop being effective? Please help - don't know what to do!

[Hayleys]

My DD is nearly 17 months now and is usually an independent sleeper and has been since around 6 months.  She has always gone to sleep well and on her own at nap time and thankfully still continues to do so.  In recent months she was in the habit of falling asleep on the bottle but I had managed to stop this and she would fall asleep with me either doing WI/WO or gradual retreat (I adapted it, depending on how upset she was).  However, also over the last few months she has had a cold, one after the other and I have at times had to APOP her to sleep.  After each illness we have been able to go back to the sleep training though so I haven’t been so worried as we have managed to get back on track (although not for long until the next cold struck – ugh).

In recent weeks she has also had 3 molars cut (one has still not fully cut yet so I’m aware that this could still be bothering her and we are giving her meds before bed).  She had a cold at the same time as the 3 teeth cutting and last week, once two had fully cut and her cold had passed, I thought I would try again to get her back to sleeping independently at bedtime.  However, when I put her down she really got upset, a cry which I had not heard before.  She was also standing and would not lay herself down.  I used to be able to say her sleepy phrase and she would respond well to this and lay herself back down either immediately or after a few minutes or so.  However for a whole hour she was standing up and crying (like I said this cry I had not heard before).  I was in the room with her, standing by the door saying her sleepy phrase.  Then after an hour she just laid down.  I thought that she would then drift off but instead she started chatting and an hour later she was still not asleep.  I actually then APOP her to sleep as I was so worried about the time and had work the next day and felt concerned that we were already getting off to a bad start in the night.  After this night I haven’t attempted sleep training again, she has had a stomach bug since, but also I feel like I don’t know what is going on right now and really want to get some advice.  I’m worried that she was quite affected by crying for so long (even though I was in the room) as the following nights she cried when she saw her cot just before I was about to give her a bottle.  Like I said it has been over a week now and last night was the first night that she didn’t cry before her bottle so at least we have made some progress.

Our nights are quite bad at the moment too, she is waking most nights.  I’m think it could be teeth related, maybe the 18 month sleep regression too, can that come on at 16 and a half months? Also I’ve noticed that she is beginning to assert herself more during the day and we have had a few tantrums so could her new cry just be part of this?  If she woke in the night previously, I could always settle her with WI/WO but she has been screaming when she wakes too so I’m still APOP her back to sleep.  I really want to get back on track, especially as we are staying at my in-laws over the Christmas period, but would really appreciate some advice right now.  Like I said despite the problems at bedtime and during the night, nap time is fine.  I lay her down, leave the room and then she falls asleep without any issue, regardless of teething or illness.  She is in much more of a habit of this though, whereas bedtime has been a lot less consistent!!

Here is her EASY:
WU 6 – 6:30
S 12 pm (always sleeps for an hour and a half, usually no more than 2 hrs)
7 pm bedtime

Any ideas?

[*Becky*]

It sounds like there is a lot going on with her atm eh? Yes the 18 month regression can start around 16/17 months for some lo's so it could be that but if she has been ill and is teething I would think that is probably the main issue. WIWO is great but it is not the best method if lo's are sick or teething tbh as then they often do just need some extra reassurance and that is fine, you can work on getting back on track once they are ok.

I was not clear - is she having any night feeds between going to bed and the morning? What AP are you using to get her back to sleep?

Her routine looks pretty good to me - if she is always doing a 2 hour nap then that is good news.

[Hayleys]

Hi

Thank you very much for your response! 

Yeah we have had a lot going on recently, she seems to be getting a cough and cold every other week right now and that combined with her molars popping up has made us have a real wobble. 

The incident I referred to though when she was very upset during WI/WO or gradual retreat, was perplexing as she was over her cold and was much more herself.  Three of the molars in her gum had fully cut, but actually her fourth was and still is not fully cut, so perhaps that does explain it and I tried to get back on track too soon!  I certainly have never had such a response from her before when we have tried to get back on track after illness.  I guess I rushed things too quickly.

The problem I have though is it is really hard to AP her to sleep.  She doesn't have any other night feeds during the night, only her night time bottle and then breakfast in the morning.  If she doesn't fall asleep on her night bottle then sometimes I can hold her in my arms and cuddle her to sleep, but this is more effective if she is in the early stages of illness.  As soon as she starts feeling a bit better, but not perhaps fully recovered, then she finds it harder to settle on me.  I think that she is so used to having her own space in her cot to settle that she finds it difficult in my arms.  I have also been putting her in the pushchair and rocking her to sleep.  During the last two weeks when things have been at their worst this has really worked well at getting her to sleep quickly.  However, it is not the most practical of solutions and I don't really like using it, but it does seem to sooth her. I used to be able to put her in her cot and lean over and cuddle her then pat the mattress and try to encourage her to lay down.  The last few times I tried this though she wasn't comforted for long by my cuddles and was patting the mattress herself, crying and not laying back down.

Do you think I should wait until her fourth molar has fully cut until I try again with a sleep training method?  It's one of the top ones which hasn't fully cut.  Her other top one took a long time to come through (perhaps even a month) but her bottom ones popped up really quickly!  I'm just worried about her getting so used to going to sleep a different way that it will make it more tricky when I try again?   Also is it usual to not have any problems at nap times, only bed time.  The only thing which I can think is that nap time has been more consistent as there has not been a bottle to fall asleep on so perhaps she has got used to this.

Right now she is not ill, but does have the molar still cutting.  I have noticed that the night wakes have got better, in fact last night she did not wake at all.  I'm not sure if the night wakes seem better though as I have been using the pushchair to AP her to sleep and this is more effective and quicker than holding her, which is what I was doing before.  It's tricky to know!

Thanks for your help with this!
 

[*Becky*]

If it were me I would focus on getting her to sleep in her bed rather than the push chair. If she is still cutting a tooth then I would give meds 30 minutes before sleep time and see if that helps. I think it is fine to give her a little extra help but like you say you don't want to create habits that will be hard to break and if she is not actually sick anymore then I would start to focus on getting her to sleep in her bed.

[Hayleys]

Hi

Just to clarify when you say you would focus on getting her to sleep in her cot, do you mean by using WI/WO right now or by just trying to settle her any way I can?

I do always give her meds 30 mins before bed but to be honest I'm not sure how much it helps her.  Last night I gave her nuerofen and after 20 mins of being asleep she was awake and hard to settle.  Doesn't a wake 20 mins into sleep often signal discomfort?  We had another difficult night last night too with 2 other waking during the night. 

I'm noticing that she is putting her fingers in her mouth a lot and she seems to be pressing on her gum where the canines are due to come in!  Ugh - teething seems never ending.  I just feel so unsure about when to start the sleep training again.  Although her cold has now cleared she does still not quite seem herself.  I have gone back to sleep training at this point in the past though and it has gone well.  I just feel so hesitant due to this new cry she seems to have developed! 

When I tried to do WI/WO last time she cried as soon as I put her in the cot.  This is quite usual after illness so I persevered but the main difference was that she did not stop!  Usually there will be points when she cries and then stops but she just did not do that.  She also did not lay herself back down, like she would ususally.  I have always been able to stand at the door and use my voice to calm her but I almost felt like speaking to her was making it worse this time.  Well, it certainly did not help!  Do you think I need to change what I'm doing?  I really felt that I could not leave the room as she was so upset.  Or do you think that I just need to try when I think she isn't teething, like I said though that could take ages!!  I've always felt that I could judge her mantra cries well, but last time there were just not any which I could hear.

Thank you for your help!

[*Becky*]

i think it is fine to start now but if you are worried about pain and/or teeth then how about just focusing on getting her to sleep in her cot. You can always remove the contact once she is settling better. It sounds like WIWO might be a bit much for her right now so if you need to ssh her in the cot or pat her bottom or whatever works then do it but try to get her to go down in the cot rather than the buggy. That is your first task. We can tackle this in baby steps. x

Also - for some lo's nurofen can be  a bit hard on their stomach so if it is not working then I would not give it.

[Hayleys]

Hi

Thank you!

So last night I tried to get her down for bed in her cot but unfortunately it wasn't successful.  Firstly, we were running late with bedtime (this never usually happens) so she did not actually go into her cot until 7:30, instead of 7 pm.  I had given her a spoon to hold while she had her meds before bed and she ended up taking this upstairs with us.  She was waving it around while drinking her milk so I just let her as I knew it would create problems if I tried to cox it away from her and thought she would probably drop it.  Sure enough she did but it must have fallen onto her gro bag and when I put her in the cot the spoon dropped in too.  She cried initially as soon as I put her in her cot but once she saw the spoon again she calmed and started playing with it.  I was sitting next to the cot (not facing her) I was surprised that she was laying down for most of the time and was even hopeful that she may just drift off to sleep.  However after 40 mins she started standing up and crying.  I leaned over the bars and comforted her and tried to cox her to lay down.  She did at times but then was quick to stand up again.  After another 30 mins I could see how tired she was and was getting very over tired now and frustrated.  She then was pushing me away, not laying down and was now very upset!  It was then 2 hrs past her bedtime, she was in a state so I resorted to the pushchair to calm her as I felt it was the best thing to do at the time (not in the long run I realise).  She then feel asleep very quickly!

I'm wondering to be honest if perhaps it may be better for me to just sit by her cot and say her sleepy phrase if she starts crying rather than making physical contact with her. In the past, there have been times when I have been able to physically comfort her in her cot like I tried but it can be hit and miss.  Also I wonder if it may also confuse her?  Since a young age she has been an independent sleeper (or falling asleep on the bottle) and I think she just likes her own space, perhaps?

It has been 3 weeks now or more since she went to sleep on her own at bedtime (although she has had a stomach bug in that time also).  I started to encourage her not to fall asleep on the bedtime bottle about 3 months ago.  As I mentioned she has been plagued with many cough and colds which have inhibited things.  We have been always been able to get back on track quite quickly after illness during this time (perhaps 3 nights of her crying more than usual).  At it's best, it has never been as plain sailing like nap time though where I can lay her down, leave the room and she will just drift off in her own time.  I have noticed that it usually takes her 30 mins to fall asleep after I put her in the cot and left the room.  Usually she will cry towards the end of the 30 mins and I have to go in, stand by the door and say her sleepy phrase.

Since trying the sleep training after her illness, the new cry which she is doing has really thrown me.  My husband and I have noticed that she can do it during the day as well if she is really upset about something but it did also start when she started to have 3 molars cut the gum.  I managed to look in her mouth last night and the 4th molar has still not moved much but is coming through.  The gum also looks a bit red and sore where a canine is due to come.  The redness is right at the bottom of her gum though and you can see the tooth so it doesn't look like it is due to cut anytime soon.

Any ideas on how I should progress?  Thanks for the tip with nuerofen, we've gone back to calpol!

[*Becky*]

If your presence is not helping then yes I would remove yourself to outside the door and just say your sleepy phrase if she gets upset....my DS would not have settled if i was sitting next to him. If you have given meds then you can be sure she is not in pain and you are there, just not right next to her. Whatever you start, I would really try to be consistent so don't take her out and push her in the pushchair if you decide this is your approach.
It sounds like last night she was OT by bedtime so then could not settle and the spoon was also an issue. With something like that I would just say 'oh we don't take the spoon upstairs, we will leave it her until tomorrow' and just leave it.

[Hayleys]

Yeah, I’ve done something like before when she has been taking an item to bed with her, but this time I didn’t realise that she had it in her hand until she was drinking her milk! Ugh!

In regards to settling her, what I have done in the past after illness is this:  I sit by the cot, not facing her.  If she starts crying, I say her sleepy phrase until she stops, she may then keep standing up or babbling but I remain quiet as long as she is not crying.  After time she will then lay herself back down and drift off to sleep.  This has worked really well. 

Over the course of a few nights I have then started to sit by the door or if I feel I can leave the room then I do.  Do you think this sounds ok, I’m thinking that this is what she is used to so perhaps I should try this first?  I have never stood outside the door before and I’m not sure how she would respond to this.  Perhaps this is something I could attempt if my usual method does not work? 

I feel really nervous about doing it to be honest as my last attempt (a few weeks ago) went was horrible.  I think you are right about her being OT at bedtime as she is not having the best of nights right now and she is missing out on some night sleep.  Do you think I should let her catch up on some sleep before attempting again?  She has never been very good with EBT and would often wake early if I have done this in the past.  But I have noticed that if she is over tired then it does seem to work well until she has a good nights sleep. I’m tempted to AP her to sleep right now though until I feel she has caught up and then start the sleep training again.  What do you think?  I’m just wondering if I do it while she is OT then it may be more tricky for her to settle.
 
You are right, I definitely need to be consistent when I do it.  Before she has always settled within an hour so it has never concerned me so much that the time is ticking on and she is loosing night sleep.  Should I just keep going with it until she falls asleep then?  Who knows, maybe it won’t take so long when I start again but I just want to be prepared.

Thanks for your help!  Like I said I feel nervous about it right now after having that difficult experience so I really appreciate your advice and support!

[*Becky*]

Sounds like you have a great GW plan and if it has worked in the past then it probably will again as long as you stick to it. It is really hard for me to say when to start as really you need to be ready. If you feel more comfortable APing until she is more rested you can do that, it is what makes you feel most comfortable tbh. I always think it is best for parents to start ST when they are ready and able to tackle it consistently rather than starting and not being 100% committed yk?

I totally understand how you feel as have BTDT with DS and it is really hard but for me the decision to start was harder than the actual process. Yes it was hard but not as hard as I built it up to be once  had a plan and some support on here yk?

[Hayleys]

Hi - Thank you!!

My DD has another cold now, so I haven’t been able to begin the sleep training again.  I’m slightly concerned as it has been so long since she went to sleep independently at bedtime, it’s been about a month now.  She is still going down fine for her nap though and falling  asleep independently for this is not a problem.  Do you think it will matter that so much time is passing? It’s the same with any night settling, I am AP(ing) her back to sleep at the moment.  She just constantly seems to be ill right now, it’s just one cold after another! Ugh!!

The other thing is that I’m noticing that if she sleeps in the day for more than 2 hrs then it seems to affect her night sleep.  The other day she slept for 2 and a half hours and was up for 2 and a half hours during the night and just could not seem to fall asleep.  I’m wondering if this may be related to the long nap, obviously there is so much going on with her right now so it is hard to tell.  She is 17 months now, at this age is it more usual for her day nap needing to be capped at 2 hrs?

Her EASY is this:
WU 6-6:30
S  12 pm  (Will always have an hour and a half, but sometimes 2 hrs)
BT  7 pm

Right now as our nights are all over the place, she is really tired during the day.  Last night was quite a good night though.  She was asleep at 7:10, woke at 7:40 but quickly settled back to sleep, woke at 11 pm and again settled back to sleep quickly and then did not wake until 6:30 pm.  I feel like last night was the most amount of night sleep which she has had in a long time.  To be honest though I do wonder if her EASY is suitable as even when she is not teething or ill it is highly unusual for us to get through the night without any wake ups.  Is there anything which you can see that immediately springs to mind in her EASY or maybe we need to rethink once she is better and going back to sleep independently at bedtime.

[*Becky*]

Her EASY looks ok to me but if she is doing 1.5 hours then I think the day is too long, if she is doing more like 2-2.5 then I think the day length is fine. If she is a LSN child then you may need to cap at 2 hours.

At this age my DD was doing a similar day i.e. a 6am wake and a 1.5 nap but BT was more like 6.15/30pm rather than 7pm. Around 20 months her nap lengthened and we started to do a later BT.

If she can fall asleep at nap time ok then she can fall asleep at BT too so I would just keep on encouraging that. It sounds to me that she may be a little OT maybe from the illness or the shorter naps so it might be worth trying a slightly earlier BT for a night or two to see if that helps. x

[Hayleys]

Thank you! That is very helpful information about EBT depending on her nap length, I didn’t know that!  I’ll give it a go!

To be honest I’m really not sure whether she is low sleep needs or not.  Up until now she has always been more inclined to do an 11 hr night instead of a 12 hr one.  I’ve noticed as well that the better night she has (closest to 11 hrs), she seems more inclined to have a 2hr sleep instead of a one and a half hour one.  Obviously this is not always the case but there does seem to be a pattern.

When she was going down at bedtime independently, she would always seem to take about 30 mins to fall asleep.  This is with BT being set at 7 pm regardless of nap time.  Does it sound like she could have been taking so long due to OT.  She also would cry before drifting off too and often I would have to go into her.  A few months a go she was waking early at around 5 am with an EBT  of 6 pm so that’s why I stopped doing it as she didn’t seem to be tacking on sleep. I do feel a little apprehensive of EBT because of this but I think trying it at 6:30 pm would be good!

When she was younger she would always wake during the first 45 mins of her nap.  This is when she was on 2 naps a day. With the help of another mod on this forum we realised that she was going down for bed OT.  When I changed her EASY, the problem rectified – it made such a difference to my evenings!!
At the moment she has been waking at around the same time during her night sleep most nights.  So I am wondering if OT is in the mix again.  Well I think it is very likely seeing as she has not been sleeping well at night and seems more tired in the day.  Like I said, in my last post, she did have a better nights sleep last night though so I’m hoping that if she can do the same over the next few nights then she can catch up.  I woke her after 2 hrs of sleep when she had her nap yesterday and although she woke twice in the early evening she did fall back to sleep very quickly.  I’m not sure if this was the right thing to do but like I said I have noticed that if she has a longer nap then she is more prone to having a long night wake.  However, with teething in the mix then it may be hard to make this judgement call. 

Does she sound like she has low sleep needs?  Also just to clarify, you mentioned about encouraging her to get to sleep independently at bedtime, do you think I should still do this even if she has a cold or wait until it passes.

Thanks again!

[*Becky*]

I'm not sure she is low sleep needs but she does sound OT. I often let DD have up to 2.5 hours if she was sick so you could try that for a day or two if you feel she needs it. With the EBT I am not suggesting you do it day after day, I just think if she has a short nap or is sick it could be a good option.

I have a feeling the settling at BT may get better if she is less OT so let's work on getting her down a bit earlier if she naps less than 2 hours. As for settling her I would think unless she is v sick or in pain that you could still follow the plan of being outside the door and reassuring her.
What do you think?

[Hayleys]

Hi

My husband is quite ill at the moment so I really don't feel that starting the sleep training again right now is something manageable right now. I'm hoping to do so soon though, do you think that as so much time is passing it will make a huge difference? Realistically it may not be until after Christmas now.

On an other note, she has started to cry just before I give her the night bottle. This started after I had that difficult experience with her where she was crying a lot for an hour. I'm worried that this has affected her as she seems upset seeing the bottle as if she doesn't then want me to put her in her cot.

After her bath, I change her downstairs. We then go upstairs with her milk and say goodnight to her wall stickers and toys. It is quite quick and then she has her milk. The thing is it has always been like this and she has never had this reaction that's why I'm concerned that the incident I keep referring to has distressed her.

Any ideas?