general sleep questions 17 mo

[bestsmilee]

My almost 17 month old was experiencing terrible NW/EW and I was given great advice to move his nap time later in order to remedy the situation. So it definitely worked, but now his BT is all wonky! Ok, so his day is basically like this: he STILL has NO regular WU. Never has. He wakes up anywhere between 5:15-7:30 now. We aim to put him down for his nap now at 12:30, but he will fall asleep anywhere from 12:45-1:30. If he is still sleeping I will wake him up by 2:45. He had gone to bed around 7/7:30 (7:30 was considered late) after being put down around 6:30. So I now put him down for the night around 7:15. But now, ever since we moved his nap, he is going to bed later and later. First it was 7:45, then 8....and tonight it was 9 and that was insane for him (and us). That's the latest he has ever gone to bed. I don't know how to "normalize" his schedule. I don't understand why it seems it is either EWs or late BTs...I can't seem to find a middle ground. I don't let him sleep too late in the afternoon (2:45 is the cap). I had read some other people's success stories with sleep issues and I don't understand how their LOs sleep SO late in the afternoon! Any idea what is going on? All external factors have been ruled out (teething, etc.) 

[ZacsMumme]

hugs. This could be the 18 nth sleep regression right on the tail of the 16/17 nth developmental leap...

Are you working on a set nap or A times? - I wonder if you may need t work on A times given the set nap hasn't meant a typical WU time (i.e. between 6.30-7 most days)

What do you do on EW days? - What WU is acceptable in your house?

[bestsmilee]

Acceptable WU would be 6am...mainly because we'd be happier with a 6am WU than anything earlier. (And for a while it was way earlier pretty consistently). Ideally WU would be between 7-7:30. We have been doing set nap times as the A times never really helped to normalize his schedule in the beginning. Set nap times worked way better for him and I don't think I would go back to A times because 1: even if I put him down for a nap a bit earlier one day because of a very EW, he would still WU early the next day, so it was advised to keep the nap times the same regardless and I think that that helped him even with small setbacks and 2: it is way more predictable for his day if he goes down at the same time (ish) every day.

On EW days we try to get to try him back to bed at first if it is just too early but if he doesn't give, after a while we just take him out...and thus the day begins!

What happens when his nap gets later, let's say around 2pm. How long am I supposed to let him sleep so that his BT doesn't keep getting later and later?

[ZacsMumme]

My boys always seem to be tired enough for usual BT when I move the nap later as the longer A in the morning makes them more tired.

I wouldn't be capping the nap any earlier than 1.5 hrs at this age. But if he is mucking around at nap time I'd def try a later nap. Try 12.45 for a few days then 1 and cap at 1.5 hrs If your getting ew start the day at 6 as you are and go for an earlier BT of say 6.30-7 as I think he sounds Ot rather than ut

[bestsmilee]

How long does the 18 mo regression last? Are we still supposed to stick to our current schedule regardless of it?

[ZacsMumme]

It varies. My favourite articles on it are here (shudder)
http://www.babysleepsite.com/baby-sleep-patterns/why-18-month-sleep-regression-can-be-hardest/
http://alphamom.com/parenting/toddler-parenting/when-your-toddler-stops-sleeping/

For us it was a combo of developmental changes, teething, change in sleep requirements and SA. I tried to be as consistent as I could when I could, and be kind but firm. I always went in and tried to settle for 20 mins before Wi/wo but we kept Z in his room and tried to minimise AP. I I knew it was teeth then we gave pain meds. Z needed approx 30 mins less sleep in 24 than his avge. So I adjusted his day a bit. Mainly I pushed the nap back, capped at 1.5 and kept Bt the same.

[bestsmilee]

Wow. I had no idea that this was a typical sleep regression. So much to learn!

From what I read from the articles you provided, it sounds like my DS was suffering from the 18 month sleep regression at around 15 months old. That's when his EWs and NWs were reallllly bad like the mommy in the article writes about her DC. Since I moved his nap it has been better, just he resists BT a bit more now. My question is - is it normal for the 18 month sleep regression to occur between 15-17 months? I'm just nervous now that we actually haven't experienced the major sleep regression yet. I'm terrified of an upcoming storm!!

Do you think he's OT at BT? Or something else?

He wakes up let's say between 6 and 7:30.
Nap 12:45 - until about 2 or 2:45
and I guess I PD at around 7pm. Sometimes he will fall asleep 7:30 or 8 (if it's at 8, it's usually after a bit of a protest).

It sounds like WI/WO worked for your LO! I still have to stay in the room (with a hand in the crib most of the time) until he falls asleep (which is NOT so great for the MOTN...) I'm wondering what age I can just expect to be out of the room without this removal techniques? WI/WO is just never going to work for him anytime soon. I just have that feeling. Yikes...looks like I'm in need of a crystal ball...

[ZacsMumme]

There is a developmental leap at 15-16 mths too,then the last is usually mixed in the the 18 mth repression. All a bit depressing really

I think if your doing GW that is fine but you do need to take that next step at some point YK? Even if it is a bit of a rough few nights as your LO adjusts. Maybe sit in a chair in sight but no touching. Or leave after 5 mins of touching. Till your LO you are going to do this though, they understand more than they can say YK?

I would be tempted to push that nap even later if WU is usually closer to 7-7.30 (1pm) and make Bt after a 12-12.5 hr day min. Most LOs this age need 10hrs A min, often I see them needing more like 10.5 some 11 in 24hrs, particularly after a solid 2 hr nap.

What do you think?

[bestsmilee]

So you're saying I should just start trying to get him to sleep independently now? You're probably right...it's just a scary thought because I know he just isn't going to like it. I had tried once and not even after a few minutes of starting, I went back in and waited until he stopped crying but he was so upset with what I was doing that he would not stop crying and so I just stayed in the chair. It's more of my usual thing to sit in the rocker with my back to him without my hand in the crib and he can usually go to bed like that. If he gets upset I'll put a hand on his mattress or say 'it's okay' and he will usually calm down. I can try again tonight but I don't have much hope that he will be calm without me in the room.

I'm going to try to put him down for a nap today at 1pm. He had resisted his naps this weekend. Saturday - very late nap and Sunday - NO nap (which is very unusual for him). He woke up today at 6:30 so I guess I will keep BT the same: PD at around 7 and hope that he falls asleep by 7:30 (and not 8 )...

Another Q - so as his nap gradually gets later, at what point does it get 'too late'? I don't generally like him sleeping past 2:45, because if he does have a nice nap he doesn't really fall asleep by 7:30. So let's say he gets to the point where he needs to nap at around 2...do I let him sleep until 3? The whole thing is just so confusing. (And for him, he may be a bit of an exception because I feel like the later he naps, the later he pushes his BT).

[ZacsMumme]

You don't have to try to make him sleep independently on his own now. You have to do it when you feel ready. If your happy being in his room, and he. Is happy then really there isn't a problem. But if you feel like it needs to change, that is likely your next step.

How are his naps going? - is he taking them again?

Honestly the later nap always worked for us as the long first A meant he was tired by BT even with a short A after the nap. Our nap got as late as 2-3.30 before I had to really cap (and this was at almost 3yrs.) our WU and BT was typically 7am/7.30pm.

It's definitely worth a try pushing the nap later.

[bestsmilee]

Well, ideally, I'd like to not have to be in the room when he is falling asleep. I tried the WI/WO again this week and after about 5 minutes he was not having it. He was hysterical and it took some time to calm him down that I didn't want to start up again.

So the last few days his naps have been weird. He was going down at 12:45pm with no problem right beforehand and now he hasn't been falling asleep until about 2. I'm not letting him sleep past 3 (the later his nap, the more fear I feel about his upcoming BT). Should I just put him down for his nap at 1:45 now instead of 12:30? Or is that too big of a jump?

Wow, so you're LO was napping 2-3:30 at around 3? My DS just turned 17 months and he's about at that time where I feel like I need to cap the nap. I can't imagine what will happen if he starts resisting a 2pm at not even 2 yrs!

[ZacsMumme]

Well, ideally, I'd like to not have to be in the room when he is falling asleep. I tried the WI/WO again this week and after about 5 minutes he was not having it. He was hysterical and it took some time to calm him down that I didn't want to start up again.

He will get angry Hun, very angry, and protest because he doesn't want you to leave. It's likely if you are going to do Wi/wo it will take a good hour. if you don't feel comfortable with Wi/wo your only other option is GW - and you need to make the next step ie stand at the door, then outside it.   Even this is likely to cause some tears

Remember you're lo is in a regression period really. This age I had to cap Zs nap around 1.5-1hr45 and moved it back. Then about 20 mths I put it back to 1hr45-2 hrs as he seemed to need it again.

We did have NND from 2yrs3 mths though, initially just 1 day a week with EBT. And his nap then stayed at 1.5 with. One NND as he got older. I only capped really short once he hit 3 in the final jump to no naps.

If 1.45 is working then stick with it but I would allow 1.5 hrs at least. The later the nap the more quickly they often get tired in that second A time to bed x

[bestsmilee]

What does NND stand for?

I think I was originally doing GW because all I was doing was standing by the door and reassuring him the whole time, "it's okay, I'm here" but he wasn't having it. Is there an age where this process is just easier? Because when I think about it, when it is time to transition to the toddler bed (whenever that may be), I'll have to start GW all over again, right?

I'll keep trying for a 1:30 nap now and try to make it at least 1.5 hrs like you suggested. I'm hoping that it doesn't affect his BT like it seems like it has before.

[ZacsMumme]

Nnd is no nap day
Try offering the nap a bit later in the day if you keep having BT battles or push BT out a touch, but be wary, a lot of of this is age related I think (developmental) and consistency is key xx

[bestsmilee]

I don't understand it! Today he napped from 2-3:20 (which is late, but I took your advice and aimed for about 1.5 hour nap) and I thought the later nap wasn't supposed to affect BT! He didn't fall asleep until 8:15 (and that wasn't without whining until it escalated into hysterical crying for quite some time). I was near tears tonight. I really need him asleep before 8 (ideally 7:30). Is this part of the "transition" with the later nap? (And if so, does that mean he will eventually settle back to regular BT at 7:30?) I really don't want to go through that again every night. Do you think maybe he needs a shorter nap? I was itching to wake him at 3 because that's my "nap cap" usually but I also wanted to see how he would do with a 1.5 hour nap.

Also, a thing I realized: even when I'm in the room with him and he sees me or definitely knows I'm there, it's not like he goes to bed so simply. He can whine a bit first on and off. He can be almost asleep (or at least lying down and very quiet) and then start up again. How does GW work with this? I mean I just don't see it working ever, if when I'm actually already in the room, not even offering him any sort of prop or aid (just my presence), he can't settle easily. I was thinking tonight that if he keeps falling asleep later and later I am going to HAVE to leave the room, because if I'm going to be at all useful the next day I need to go to bed at 10...and since he went to sleep after 8, it doesn't give me a lot of time to get my work done.

Sorry if this read as a vent post. It was a rough BT...