5m old - 45m nap all day/night

[Linhi]

Hi,

I have 2 friends who cant speak English. Their children has trouble with sleeping: he can only sleep 40-45m all nap even in nighttime. And all bad, they both tried CIO for their children.


So here is easy of Mom 1, before CIO. She tried to make the awake time longer/shorter but still the same. Her son still sleep only 40m and then wake up, even in night time. So every nap/nighttime if mom comes at 40m point and pat, son can sleep through/ if not, full awake. But now after CIO, it gone worse, son will wake at after 20 or 30min and cry til next feed and son sleep at 6pm (because ot all day). Son is 5months
7am: w

9-10.30: s (mom comes to pat @40m mark)
11: e

12.30-14.30: s (mom comes to pat @40m mark)
15: e

16.30-17: s

19 go to bed but have to pat until 19.30, not drift off easy as day nap



 Mom 2 is better, son is 6months. But at the first nap, son only sleep 30' (wake time 2h). Second nap is 2hours (wake time 3hours). The problem is son wake at 45m, if she mom there can sleep through, if not wont.


How can we fix the short nap? Thanks

[weaver]

As you probably know (by the sound of your post), we are against CIO, for many reasons, but mainly because it breaks the bonds of trust between parents and children. Hopefully your friends won't try this method again, but if they are tempted to, and I understand that people sometimes feel desperate, you could share this information with them:
Research on why 'cry it out' and 'controlled crying' is NOT recommended!

In a nutshell, you cannot spoil a baby with too much love.  If they're having trouble sleeping, they need understanding, cuddles, and help.

So let's get to the help.

For Mom1.  Such frequent wakings sound to me like a pain or discomfort issue.  Has she had her son checked for reflux or other problems?
Reflux 101 - General reflux information

For Mom2.  Average Activity time for late 5 months- 6 months  is 2 hr 30 mins to 3 hours.  So her A times are too short, she should try increasing them by 15 mins to start with and see how baby copes with that.

Here are some sample routines for six mos.
chronological EASY samples, 4-6 months

HTH.

[Linhi]

Yes, for me as i have read the book, i really understand about not recommend cio. But in vn, we really lack of info & i dont why cio becomes trend now  (or its the only method they know). Im trying to introduce pupd, shush-pat & Pantley to friends.

I will get back with you soon. Thanks for your reply

[Linhi]

I have talked with mom 1, her son doesnt have reflux. When putting to bed, he can go to sleep by his own, mom just need to put down. The problem is he only sleep 20-30min, max is 40'. If mom doesnt come and pat, son never make through and just wake up. Nighttime can be better but mom still has to wake to pat him through every sleep cycle. She tries to adjust awake time - sooner or later the result still the same.

Do you have any idea?

[Florena49]

i would agree with  weaver here, it doesnt have to be reflux or colic, but it very much sounds like discomfort. Our LO is not a great sleeper by nature, and last week we had an eat infection and we had 4 nights of him waking up every sleep cycle, so every 40 minutes i had to resettle him. I think all babies react differebtly to pain, perphaps teething? Has this always neen the case or is it recently that he started sleepibg like this in the night?

[weaver]

Ok, it might not be reflux but as Viktoria says it might be something else, particularly as he's doing it at night as well as during the day.  Many babies have short naps during the day for reasons to do with A times, or development, but waking all day and all night is a strong signal to me that something physical might be wrong.  I don't want to worry her, but perhaps she (and you) could think about it a bit.  Sounds like he goes to sleep really well, though, that's great.

Three other things to say.

(1) Short naps can mean different things. 30 mins is generally OT, 40 mins generally UT.  So it would be good if your friend could note down how long each nap is, and how LO is when he wakes (happy, crying, etc).  It might make things clearer.  And maybe then you can post an EASY for us to see?  It would be really good to see what their day looks like.

(2) If he goes back to sleep with a bit of patting-shushing, that's great.  It does take a while, maybe several weeks, for LOs to learn to get through the transition.  How long has she been doing it? How long does it take for him to get back to sleep, and how long does he sleep for then?

(3) If he will sleep in a sling/carrier/buggy/wherever, she might want to do this for one nap every day or two: Put him down for a nap in his cot/crib, and when he wakes up, put him in the sling and go out.  Hopefully he will go back to sleep for another 40 mins or so.  He will catch up on sleep and she will get a bit of a break from standing beside his cot. 

Perhaps this sample routines might help her:
chronological EASY samples, 4-6 months

Yes, for me as i have read the book, i really understand about not recommend cio. But in vn, we really lack of info & i dont why cio becomes trend now  (or its the only method they know). Im trying to introduce pupd, shush-pat & Pantley to friends.

Bless you, it's not easy but so great that you're trying to help your friends and their LOs 

[Linhi]

Hi, im back.

Mom 1 still struggling with ds. She tried different a time, son just still take 30 nap and wake up crying.


Also, can you look at my dd easy? The second nap she usally wake up after 30' - happy & cooing. It take time for me to sh-pat her to get back to sleep. We tried to keep the a time longer but not work, it even make her ot.
After weaning paci, dd often fuss when we put her down to sleep (Weaned success more than a week), when will she stop like that or does it suppose to be like that? Im really confused cuz it look like she doesnt want to sleep. Dd is 4m

8: wake/feed
9:30 s
11:30-12: e
13:30-14: s - 30 nap - cooing, thumb sucking, blah blah...
16: e
17:30-18: catnap
19:15 bath
19:45-20: s

[Linhi]

Helpe! Now every nap turn to 30'. She even wake upat mid night and cooing. It really hard to put her back to sleep. Im really tired now.
Even this morning she took her 30 nap, i let her play awhile and put her back to sleep later, she still take only 30' nap, wake up and just babble

[Florena49]

Bumping for you, hopefully one of the mods comes round soon.

[*Ali*]

A huge number of our members can and do give excellent advice. A moderator's role is really to ensure the content of the forum is appropriate, we aren't experts!

Linhi, I'm sure your DD must be Undertired. In your EASY she slept longer than she was awake and then did another short A time. I would gradually extend her A time to 2hrs so she is tired enough to take a full nap. If she is getting OT then you may need to do it gradually by 10 mins every few days. She may still wake as many LOs haven't got the hang of transitioning through sleep cycles yet by this age. If she isn't UT though you should be able to resettle her. She probably needs longer to get used to settling without the paci too. A week is not long really.

You could try wake to sleep where you disturb her 10 mins before her habitual wake up. For you that would be after 20 mins of her nap. You can then shh pat her to get her back into a deep sleep. That won't work unless you bring her A times to a more age-appropriate length though.

[Linhi]

Hi,
Back for update. Dd is getting better. We make the a time longer, up to 2hrs and we get 2 differnt result. Some nap she can sleep up to 1h30-2h straight (we share room so when she sleep, i stay in the room helping her on transatition if she needed). But some nap she still takes short nap, fully awake at random time 20', 30'.. And it's really hard to put her back to sleep. I patted for 10', dd seems driff off but the next minute wide eye pop up or she take another short nap and have to pat again. Sometimes, im too exhausted so i pick dd up and let her sleep with me to get the easy on track. should i stop doing that? And her catnap always short. About 20'.


Also, we jus t bought her swaddle sleep slack, it makes her sleep well at night (i guessed so) but dd always make both arm out of swaddle. We get new problem: dd wakes up sooner than before (around 7-7.30) It messed up our schedule a lil bit because we dont have enough time to give her bath and bottle sooner. Do you think she is hungry? We dont do df because it hasnt work anymore, she always scream (eyes still close) when we are trying and take 1/2. I tried to put her back to sleep after morning feed but she seems so happy and just cooing, singing.

Also, i know its quiet soon to ask. But when dd turns 6m, a time is 3hrs so she only take 1hour nap? Also we will drop the catnap but the a time before bedtime will be 4hrs? Will she be ot??

[weaver]

Hi Linhi,
well different lengths of short nap can mean different things so it might be good to keep a note of A times etc, and how she sleeps. Average A time for late 5 months to 6 months is 2 hr30-3 hours.
Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!!

It's normal enough for the CN to get shorter at this age as babies move from 3 to 2 naps.  This means dropping the catnap, and keeping the morning and afternoon nap.  Don't worry about a short CN at this age

Here's more information on the 3-2 transition
All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months

[*Ali*]

She is 4 mo now right? Sorry getting a bit confusing with info for your friends' kids on this same thread.

Did you increase the A time gradually or all of a sudden? She will need time to get used to the new A time. It won't solve her issues in a couple days unfortunately.

We get new problem: dd wakes up sooner than before (around 7-7.30) It messed up our schedule a lil bit because we dont have enough time to give her bath and bottle sooner. Do you think she is hungry?

Sorry do you mean in the morning she wakes up earlier at 7-7.30am or are you talking about the evening? When was she waking up and what time was her bottle and bath?

When most babies are on a 3hr A time they do 2x 1.5hr naps. Once they start solids they don't necessarily need to eat milk every 4hrs.  So the day might look something like this:
7 E milk (BF or formula)
8 E solid food
A 7-10 (3hrs)
10-11.30 S nap (1.5hrs)
11.30 E milk
12.30 E solids
11.30-2.30 A (3hrs)
2.30-4 S nap (1.5hrs)
4 E milk
(Eventually there will be solids around 5pm too but probably not as young as 6mo)
4-7 A (3hrs)
6.45 E milk
7 S (BT)

Some times you have to play around with the E times and even bring a bottle before the nap instead of after until they are taking enough solid food to sustain them.

[Linhi]

Yes, my DD is 4m old. Sorry for posting all in the same topic
Her A time before 1st nap was 1h30 - so i just make her stay awake 15' more each day. The a before 2nd nap was already 2hours so dont have to change at all. This morning she even sleep by herself when i place her in crib, but (again) keep wake up 3times for 1h sleep. And at 10.30 i tried to pat her but she full awake, talking to me. I picked her up to let her play little while (not open curtain, just very low key, just let her talk by herself as i read in topic 'teaching baby 3-6m sleep'), and when i see her rub her eyes, i reswaddle and put her back in crib. DD cried, i turned on white noise and patted her but she was being happy and babbled  I patted a while and it not work. I let one arm out, so she suck her thumb. DD drift off a lil bit, i placed hands on legs and tummy. But she awake again after a while. I kept patting but still not work. I even pick her out again as i was too tired (almost sleep on crib side) but DD not come back to sleep. She just drift off a little bit and then awake like a roller coaster.

What should i do when she kept awake before next feed 1 hour like that? So a start at 10.30, e 11.30 when should i put her back to sleep? Is that 12.30? But it will mess up the whole easy that day, right?

For the morning wake up, we used to start our day at 8am. But now DD start wake up at 7 or 7.30. I wake before her today (around 7am) and patted her, she seems get back to sleep. I waited a little while, deep breath, not shaking head anymore. But around 7am, i heard she babble and sing DD is very chit-chat baby, can talk, sing all of day. How can i make the wake up time back to 8am?

 

[*Ali*]

I would do her first A time at 1hr45 for 3 days and then increase it again to 2hrs for a few days. She will need time to adjust to it.

I also think she sounds like she is still learning how to put herself asleep without paci. She probably needs you to find a method that's you can be consistent with. So perhaps swaddle her with one arm out, a blankie/lovey she can snuggle or suck on (or her thumb), and then shh pat her. Stick with that once you start to out her down. She probably finds it quite confusing when things like the swaddle or holding her change during the settling period.

If she wakes an hour before the next feed is due and isn't asking to be fed then you can just feed her an hour into the A time. It doesn't matter if it sis more a pattern like AEASAEAS and so on. The important thing in Easy is to keep the E time separated from the S time with a period of A. If she is asking to be fed before the hour is up then just follow her cues and feed her a bit early.

If you can get her A times up then she should be waking closer to the E time even if she short naps.

Babies won't always do a 12hr night. Anything from 10-12hrs is normal. If she is in bed at 7.45pm as you mention in your EASY routine posted above then a 7 or 730 WU is a great night's sleep. If you want it later you could try shifting her whole day later in 10 min increments but often their body clock is just set to wake up with the  birds.