Sleep and EASY support for spirited babies

[~Jen~]

Is anyone still chatting on this thread?  My DD2 is a touchy/spirited but her spirited side is definitely coming out.  She is 16wo today.  I really struggle with getting her to sleep.  She is lots of fun and happy when she is awake.  It is the sleeping that is such a struggle.  She has always short napped and she cries if I put her down OT or UT.  I'm finding it impossible to  find the right A time.  Is the crying and fighting sleep a classic spirited trait??

[newkidontheblock]

Hi Jen. We got a lot of crying and fighting sleep too. That's why I simply stopped going by her sleep cues - she seems wide awake..until she isn't:p And I really do a lot of low key stuff before her nap to relax her completely. Keeping her room absolutely dark has also helped a lot

[~Jen~]

Hi Fleur! I should have posted this much earlier - it took me months to figure out her cues were not reliable.     I just started watching the clock in the last week or so and it is making it much easier. I was doing a long wind down for a while but I now realise I cannot go near her dark room until it is within 5-10mins max before she is ready to sleep.  She shouts and is almost unconsolable crying if it is too early or too late.  I also am struggling with the "wide awake until she isn't".  She isn't an IS yet and with my DS I would get him very drowsy and then put then put down eventually earlier and earlier until he was doing it himself.  With C, she is screaming one minute and literally passing out the next.  With so much crying before sleeps, I haven't been putting her down and I knjow I need to start this soon.  She absolutely hates when I pat her.  Gentle pressure works better but I want to find a way to start calming her in my arms before putting down but I'm not sure best way to start without patting.  I sing to her now and she does seem to like that but she still isn't really getting drowsy or relaxed before sleeping.  Any advice you can share??

[newkidontheblock]

Eris also went through this phase of shouting and crying before any nap time. Her sleep window is just so small and I constantly felt like I wasn't getting it right. I remember feeling so frustrated because everything seemed to stimulate her.. Even my very presence. Just wanted to go hide behind a door or something: (

Unfortunately, Eris never passed out after screaming. Just got more awake, if anything. Tracy does say they some babies need to cry the world out as their way of settling.

Best to avoid patting if she doesn't like it. Maybe it bothers her because of her reflux? Eris HATED the shushing sound. We had a shush ban in our house because of her reaction to it. But she did get used to it later. Have you tried just holding her without doing anything else? I used to sing her sleepy song and then just hold her quietly for a while until her eyes started drooping. I was so scared of AP and props that I wouldn't even walk around. Lol. Maybe after a while you could try putting her down and leaving the room. She just might settle. I did this very late in the game but now her room is totally dark and it has made a world of difference. I thought it was dim enough earlier but I guess not

[~Jen~]

This is exactly how I feel.  It is just so hard to catch the window perfectly.  When it happens, it is so nice and I can tell from the moment I put her down it will be a good nap.  After a short nap today, I kept her in her room with low key activities and watched her so carefully.  First signs of tired and we started winding down.  By the end, I was able to put her down awake and she fell asleep on her own. She slept for 2.5hrs!!  That is the longest nap she has ever done.  Of course, she refused her next nap and we had a long stretch to BT but at least we had a great victory today. 

There is no way I can pat her.  She goes crazy even when I just put my hand on her back.  i'm not sure if it is reflux related or just her being sensitive to the stimulation.  I've been working really hard to work out her A times.  Then once I know her A, yes, I will do less and less movement while holding her.  I do walk around the house to get her relaxed and stop crying. Then as she calms I go in her room and hold her quietly.  Eventually I will start putting her down earlier and earlier.  At least that is my plan for now but we will see if she agrees.  I can see her starting to want me to help her less. I"m holding her now more in a cradle position where we have less physical contact so I hope moving in right direction? 

[newkidontheblock]

By the end, I was able to put her down awake and she fell asleep on her own. She slept for 2.5hrs!!

Awesome!

I"m holding her now more in a cradle position where we have less physical contact so I hope moving in right direction? 

Definitely. I still hold DD upright. She simply won't lie still in that position - keeps arching her back and squirming around, the little monkey.

[NZ_Mum]

Hey everyone! Hoping to jump in here and get some reassurance!
DS3 seems to be lighting up as a spirited sort more and more. This last week or so he's been getting harder and harder to get to sleep. He's also not feeding well during the day.
It's driving me wild!
Independent sleep seems like a dream and even our past props (rocking and cuddling) have been failing.
I'm at a loss of what to do!!

DS1 was very textbook as a baby but got more and more spirited as he got older.
DS2 was so laid back, and no trouble at all.
But now DS3 is turning into my most challenging baby yet!

Can anyone tell me what the "usual" spirited behaviours are?
We've certainly got the arching backwards and fighting sleep, screaming one minute, asleep the next.

[newkidontheblock]

Hi Cathy:)
Gosh, these spirited ones can be a handful, right?

We've certainly got the arching backwards and fighting sleep, screaming one minute, asleep the next.

This could even be OT. Do you want to post your routine for us to take a look?

I think you can find some information on spirited babies here
The Five Types - Everyday Moments

[NZ_Mum]

Oh yes he's OT too. Some days he just refuses to nap. Especially if he hasn't fed well (or at all, as he refuses that too) and then he can be up for hours of me trying to get him to sleep. One morning last weekend it was like 4hrs or something!
Now that school is back again at least I have one less person to worry about during the day, and he is also the one who is in baby's face the most!
Hopefully I can get some better naps today.
I really don't even have a routine to post right now!!

[newkidontheblock]

Months 3& 4 are prime time for sleep shenanigans. I remember a haze of no naps and 10 minute naps. So frustrating. It does get better once they're out of this sleep regression.

[~Jen~]

Fluer, how did you know when you pushed your LO  A time too long and  she was having her second wind?

Cathy, I will try and properly respond tonight. I am in similar situation with Caia being my 3rd Baby and very spirited and definitely my most challenging with sleep.  I will let you know what I've found works for us. Fluer's advice has been great!

[newkidontheblock]

She would protest going to sleep and I would get a 20 minute nap. You can tell sort of... One minute they look so sleepy and the next they are full of energy

[NZ_Mum]

Thanks ladies :*)

I've been doing my best but naps are still all over.
Today he barely got a nap in the morning. He woke at 6:20am hungry and that puts us at a really inconvenient timing for the school run. So I fed him and got him back to sleep. Then he was woken at 7:30 when the other boys came in. I tried to offer more milk before we had to leave but of course he won't take a topup. There's too much stuff going on in the morning rush. So then he was awake till after the school run, but I knew he'd be hungry and tired. I started to feed him and he falls asleep on me, sleep-sucking.
Then DS2 comes in and (of course) has to use the bathroom. I'm stuck in the feeding chair, wanting to carefully transfer DS3 to bed so I can help DS2, who's getting louder and starting to cry because he needs help etc. (Why do they always do that?!)
So I failed to get DS3 transferred successfully sand he woke up. DS2 has poop down his leg and pee on the floor! Ugh. Then after the cleanup, I couldn't get DS3 back to sleep for ages, the 15mins on my lap has screwed him up. I finally got him to sleep for a decent nap at lunchtime!!

But mostly I feel like I'm failing DS2. It's not his fault he's only 3 and can't use the toilet properly. He did try! But that aside I feel sorry for him with nothing to do and rushed outings (if we're lucky!) around the baby's needs and school runs for DS1.
Today he didn't even get a nap because baby slept so long after the rubbish morning, so the timing was completely off for me to get them both in the car for a drive to force DS2 to nap (he won't go down in his bed these days) He was totally OT at BT tonight, poor little guy. I think it is coming true what people say about being a middle child...

If I could get DS3 settling better by himself and on a more predictable routine, I'd be able to give DS2 some better quality time, rather than just existing on the sidelines while I deal with a tricky baby.

Sigh. I guess I better get some sleep as DS2 will bound to be awake from OT again tonight.

[newkidontheblock]

So many hugs, Cathy. You really are shouldering so much. I cannot even imagine how you and Jen manage with 3. Simply amazing! You are both super women and such great role models for FTMs like me

I can't imagine a 'typical' EASY being possible with a third actually. A sling is probably your best bet at a well-rested baby as you would simply need to be on the go so much of the time. Are you able to nurse in a sling? Would you like to post your routine for us to take a look at?

[NZ_Mum]

Thanks Fleur

DS3 was up every 3hrs last night. 9:30, 12:30, 3:30 and 6:30 (with a big poop )
I'm shattered! Lucky for me DS2 wasn't up as well.

Our "routine" is somewhat like this (although often missed naps, errands etc) sorry it's going to be probably the most erratic EAS I've ever posted! Here goes...

WU: Somewhere between 6-7ish (if it's closer to 6 I try to get him back to sleep for a bit)
E: If he will, sometimes not if he's been up all night or just fed at 5:30 or something
A: hanging out waiting for the school run
S: 9am-ish on the school run, or he cries at every red light all the way there and back and then I get him into bed when we get home, so asleep by 9:30. Sometimes I feed him to sleep if he didn't eat before we left.
Nap length changes depending on if he fell asleep in the car and did or didn't eat before we left, so may short nap and wake up hungry. Or if I've fed him recently enough and he's napping in bed he could sleep for 1.5-2hrs.
E: on waking or not depending on when he last ate! Usually he's not ready to eat for about 3.5hrs since his last good feed. Usually around 10-11am
A: Playmat, bouncy chair with a toy to hold etc. Or we have an errand to run like going to the supermarket. It's my only chance before DS2 should be having a sleep in the afternoon. If so, back in the car seat he goes! (Poor baby)
S: I try to stick to approx 1:45A time since he woke last. Or he may fall asleep in the car if we are out (or in the supermarket trolley as long as it's moving)
E: whenever he wakes up or seems hungry if he's already awake. Usually about 1-2pm
A: Hang out on playmat etc. Until it's time to get back in the car to take DS2 for a drive if he won't sleep in his bed and go the really long way round to pick DS1 up from school at 3pm.
S: In the car sometimes and then gets woken up when DS1 gets in, cries all the way home if he's hungry or trying to go back to sleep but stopping at the wretched red lights keeps waking him up.
E: when we get home if he's hungry or just put him to bed if he's shattered.
S: hopefully I can get him to have an afternoon nap at some point. Ideally while I prep dinner, sometimes not.
E: usually around 5pm
A: gets "adored" by his older brothers. DS1.just.can't.leave.him.alone!
S: maybe I have time to get him down for a CN sometimes not if I'm in the middle dinner and the other two are starving/fighting.
Declare bedtime and start putting them all to bed, starting with whoever needs it most, either DS2 or 3.
E: Bedtime BF and into bed usually by 7:30pm.
NF/DF sometime around 10
NF: 2 or 3am ish
NF 5:30 sometimes or else
WU 6-7am
Rinse and repeat.

Yep that's the most shocking "routine" I've ever written! It's laughable... 
No wonder I feel like cr@p