On 4hr EASY but fussing at breast- is he getting enough??

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

DD3 fed 5-6 times a day from 4 weeks on and did fine - she never made a true 4 hr EASY as at that point her A times were so long she needed a top up to get a good nap, otherwise if she had had a more age appropriate EASY I am sure she would have been good on 4-5 bfs. I think the important thing is not the exact number of feeds but baby's needs. If they are feeding on demand and producing enough wet diapers and are content and satisfies then they are taking what they need!

[Shdef]

Some of them do fine, many do not with feeding schedules. Here is a little link by the LLL

http://www.llli.org/nb/lvaprmay98p21nb.html

Scotty fed every four hours from birth and only went to a three hour schedule at 12 weeks or so. An average feed is between 30 and 100ml, between 6 weeks and 6 months, so there is no way that MOST babies can cope with only feeding 4 or 5 times a day. Joey did, and then reverse cycled. Any sort of scheduled feeding in the first six months (if you disregard cues) can lead to FTT, slow weight gain or low supply.

[Mackjack]

Ive no choice other than to do a schedule really because as I say DS, shows no hungry cues during the day. So yes, as Masyn says, I think if theyre gaining weight, satisfied and content then sometimes thats your only guide - as well as how enthusiastically (or not!) they feed. I would never enforce 4 feeds only on DS- I'm just trying to work out what he wants.

[Mackjack]

Martii - no when he wakes at night for a feed he goes back to sleep fine. So does that mean I shouldnt worry too much if he wakes during a DF?

[*Liz*]

Most BF babies  of this age go straight back to sleep. Gone are the days when they poop and need a nappy change after (that stage is horrid!!!). I've never DF, but it sounds like it is worth a try, hey?

I think my 2 had 8 feeds in 24 hrs when they were young - all the way up to 7 mths or so really. I always had issues with reverse cycling due to distractible fussy daytime feeds  .

I always fed DD before naps (and not after S, so the complete opposite of EAS really, but always took her off and winded her etc before she was fast asleep). She never developed prop issues. I'm sure some babies would, but DD didn't, so again it can work great for some LOs.

[*Ali*]

Steffi do you think perhaps you are confusing the advice from LLL for a newborn? EASY should be a flexible routine that includes listening to your baby not ignoring cues and holding out on a hungry baby. I don't think either of the mums on this thread are doing that at all.

Nowhere in that link does it say a 4mo needs to feed 8 times a day. In fact on the LLL website it specifically says
"Every baby is different! Due to individual differences, healthy full-term babies may breastfeed as often as every hour or as infrequently as every four hours and thrive, according to LLLI Breastfeeding Answer Book (BAB) Third Revised Edition, page 26. Daily breastfeeding patterns will vary from baby to baby and from day to day."

http://www.llli.org/faq/frequency.html

And Tracy worked with many BF babies and has case studies on them in at least one of the books. While I agree that not all babies are able to do 4hrly feeds many including both of mine did and do and get *plenty* of milk. My kids were in fact growing so well on 5 breastfeeds a day (4 in the day and a DF/NF) between 4.5-6mo that I was constantly asked by the HVs to stop supplementing although I wasn't. If I missed a feed I could often pump 4-5oz (120-150ml) and not feel as empty as after my babies fed so I know they took more. Some women have great supply and storage capacity and their babies get significantly more than the figures you seem to think are upper limits

Mackjack, I hear you on the difficulties of having an easy first baby. My DS1 was high sleep needs and still doing 2x 2hr naps and a CN with a 12hr night (with a NF) at 6mo and it was so hard for me to accept that DS2 was low sleep needs and I had to cap his 2 naps to 1.5hrs just to get an 11hr night.

Have you spoken with you HV or GP about your feelings of depression? I do think it may be a case of accepting that your DS is a different baby to your DD and has different needs and will develop at a different rate. Perhaps if you could lower your expectations you wouldn't feed so disheartened by what as Liz said was a really good night. We have a fab PPD board moderated by the lovely Liz if you think that may be an issue for you.
Post Partum Depression

[Mackjack]

Hi Ali. Thanks so much for your kind words - there are so many lovely people on this forum.i haven't spoken to anyone about how I feel yet. To be honest, it's only been over the last week or so. I just find I'm up and down all the time depending on what sort of day I'm having with DS - I can feel awful in the morning and ok by the afternoon. I think its because this whole time I've been telling myself to hang in there and that things will get better as he gets older. I certainly thought life would be more stable by 4 months so when he started sleeping through for a few nights and then stopped, I felt so disheartened. I know my expectations are high and I need to go with the flow but I just cant. For example, if his first nap of the day is not good, thats it, I know I'm in for a bad day as I can never seem to get his naps right if the first one goes badly and then I find myself with a miserable OT baby. So by about 9/10am my day can already be ruined.

[Martini~]

Hugs MJ!!! I understand you so well. I have no other babies to compare LOL but I guess I also had high expectations or maybe rather hopes... I thought I will be the lucky one to have a baby who naps well, quickly STTN, settles well, play by himself etc:))) now when I think of it, it's even quite funny:).

But it will get better and it is better with every day even if there are some ups & downs. Go to PPD board as Ali suggests if you need some more support or maybe use Birth Clubs if you would like to chat about everyday problems with other mums.

Regarding settling at night, try a DF and see how DS reacts. I think it may help him go through the night and help you to get some longer stretch of sleep. If he will be waking and difficult to resettle you will stop DF. I would try:). I am usually quite afraid of changes in routine so not to ruin what good I have, but who doesn't risk, will not win:)))!

[Erin M]

((((Hugs)))) MJ, mine were so different as well - dd1 did fine with only a df (5 total feeds) from so early on, I think ds was doing 6/7 feeds a day until 10 months!  The heart of bwing is to read cues and follow them.  I'd guess that the reason your LO doesn't show hungry cues is because your ds is used to having his needs met because of your EASY.  The df worked well for 2 out of my 3 so I would give it a try.  Ali's advice is in line with what I've generally read as well...

[Mackjack]

So, yesterday evening I was umming and ahhing for ages about whether to give him just the 4 feeds or try to cluster two together again at the end of the day so he would have five. Reason I was dithering is that his 2nd nap and catnap were rubbish so to get a decent gap between feed 3 and 4 and squeeze in a cluster feed would've meant a really long A time before bed i.e he fed at 15.00 and woke from his catnap at 17.15. I could've fed him at 1800 (so 3 hrs since the last feed but I wasn't sure that was a long enough gap to get a good feed) and then perhaps an hour later at 19.00. So in the end I decided to do the full on 4 hour EASY and feed him at 19.00. He was fine, just getting tired.

So he fed yesterday at 7.20am, 11.15am, 15.00 and 19.00. His 1900 feed went on for quite a long time (he was nodding off a bit on the job) so he didn't get to bed til 20.00. He roused at about 23.00 and went back to sleep, then roused again at 2.45am so I turned on his mobile (it has a remote control so I don't have to go in his room) and he went back to sleep quickly again. Then I could hear he was awake from about 4am/4.30am - not making any noise, just shuffling about. Eventually he started crying at 5.40am and I could tell he wanted a feed so I fed him as little as I could (not even one full boob) and he went back to sleep til I woke him at 7am. Needless to say, I got hardly any sleep last night.

I don't know what these NWs are about - I'd always associated long NWs like the 4am one with UT but he only had one good nap yesterday (1hr 40 in the morning - the other two were only 30 mins and 45mins) so he couldn't have been UT. So I'm thinking I might give the DF a try tonight as I don't really want him waking at 5.40am for a feed. Do you always do it the same time every night (i.e. 23.00) or do you do it the same amount of time after the last feed (3-4hours)??

[Martini~]

In my case these kind of NF even easy to resettle we're because of hunger as they stopped after adding a DF.

[Mackjack]

That's encouraging, Martii  - right, I'm going to do it!Do you do it the same time every night or does it depend on timing of last feed?

[Martini~]

Last feed is always 19:15 in our case and DF 10:45-11:00.

[*Ali*]

I'd try to stick to the same time ideally just before you want to go to bed yourself.  Tracy suggested 10pm-11pm. Any later tends to disturb night sleep.  You might have to play around with the time to see what suits your lo best.  Good luck.  Let us know how it goes.

[Martini~]

I decided for 10:45 not 11 as sometimes LO can be so sleepy that it takes a while until he start to suck.