afternoon bottle is missing the mark

[cosmicangel007]

not sure if this should be sleep or eat.
last few days our afternoon bottle is around 4  then she sleeps for a while  has one around 7 maybe or sometimes 9 .  if its 7 then we do a DF ,  if its 9 then we don't and its a 1:00am and a 5am bottle and then she is awake between 4-6am for the day!!!

what is the best to solution to our late afternoon bottle and up at the crack of dawn for the day?

[Lolly]

I'm not sure what the issue with the afternoon bottle is? Can you give your day in EASY format for us to see please?

How old is your LO too?

The EW could be developmental or due to the way your day is running, if you post your EASY we can see!

Laura

[cosmicangel007]

Hi Laura,
thanks for answering and i know its been a few days of me trying to figure this out and its not working...   I'll give you the whole story...

so my DD is 5 months old and 11 pounds (tiny girl)
she's been on almost an every 4 hour eating schedule, i clock it from the time she finishes a bottle to the time she starts the next bottle.  i don't always catch all her sleeps cause there are some cat naps here and there. i also have a 21 month old DS that we run after a lot or he wakes her from her naps and then there it goes  . so you can see a few Activities where there shouldn't be.

she drinks about 5oz a bottle or a little less and I've noticed that when i give her more she is extremely fussy and doesn't ever finish the bottle.  OH and she is on Donor BM if that matters too. it takes her about 20-30 minutes to finish the bottle

heres yesterday and todays schedule
Saturday Night
Bed Time routine
E 7:20
S 7:50PM-4:00AM

Sunday
E 12:20am  DF ( i know it is late but she had VERY limited sleep on saturday so i let her go)
change diaper  slight wake up 12:30am but down immediately after
E 4:30
S 5:20-7:10
A
E 9:00am
a
S 10:50am-12:00pm
A
E 1:20pm
A
S 3:15-5:00pm
E 5:20
A calming activity
S 8:10pm-3:15am  MONDAY
DF 10:20pm
E 3:10am
S 3:45am-4am
UP but quite trying to get back dow
S 4:30-6:30am
E 7:30am
A
S 9:45-10:45am
A
E 12:00pm
A
S 2:10-2:45pm
A
E 4:40pm
S 7:00pm

SO my big question here is when she takes a bottle at 5 or so then has some activity and is ready for bed at 7 how do i deal with her next feed. If i try and give her a little to top her off before she goes down, she just doesn't take it, maybe an oz but really its pushing it.  I also know at least during the day when too much goes in she spits up a good bit so to top her off at night feels like im stuffing her.

Since she goes every 4 hours and i can't curb that at night, tonight i feel like i will be feeding her at 9pm, 1:30am, 6am and so on. 
Shouldn't she be able to go 6 hours at night by now, or is she still too young?

I thought i read somewhere that if they wake at different times every night that its real hunger but if it was the same time every night 3:23 or 4:04 then its habit.  Is that right?
If thats the case then she's really hungry... i never get the same time , ever   we are all over the place!

HELP PLEASE I'm going crazy here and all alone

[Lolly]

Ok, if she is on breast milk then it's very reasonable for her to be hungry still at night. Breast milk is digested a lot faster than formula and many breast fed babies are still having nightfeeds at this age.

You need to count the time between bottles from the time she starts the feed, not the time she finishes so if a feed is at 7am then the next feed is at 11 am o n a 4 hour EASY. As she is tiny and only taking small bottles I would keep her on a 3.5 hour EASY feed wise as much as you can, have you tried a faster teat to see if she will finish a bit quicker? 20 mins is about a long as you want a feed to go on for really.

Shouldn't she be able to go 6 hours at night by now, or is she still too young?

If she is sleeping soundly from the time she goes to sleep until she wakes for a feed she is doing that with the DF! Saturday she slept from 7.50 - 4am that's 8 hours! I know it's not the 8 hours you would like though!

 It's also not a good idea to do a DF after 11pm as it can disturb sleep more than it helps, so you are better leaving her sleep and wake when she is hungry if you don't want to disturb her (I know that probably doesn't happen often though!)

If she doesn't want a feed at bedtime and too much milk causes issues then I would leave it, put her to bed and she will wake when she is hungry. If she hasn't woken by DF time then give her that.

I wonder if trying to regulate her days more will help the early hours? I know how difficult it is with 2 though. Have you seen these examples of EASYs for her age? chronological EASY samples, 4-6 months

It looks to me like some of her A times are too long which will be why you are getting trouble with naps and that will be having an impact on nights too. The A times for 5 months are 2-2.5 hours, most of her A times seem to be 3 hours+ which will get you a short OT nap. If she short naps then the next A time needs to be shorter to compensate for it.

If you look at Sunday for example it looks like she woke for the day at 7.10 and then had a bottle at 9am and a nap at 10.50. I know she had a night feed at 4.30, but I would have given a bottle at 8am, so the EASY would have been some thing like

7.10 awake
8am bottle
9.30am  - 11am (hopefully) nap
11.30am  bottle
1.30pm  - 3pm nap
3pm bottle

You would need to AP a short cat nap around 5pm to get to bedtime, but the next feed would be 6.30/7 which fits with bedtime at 7ish to give a 12 hour day/ night.

What do you think?

Laura


It sounds like she is a bit refluxy - have you discussed it with the Dr?

[cosmicangel007]

OH WOW
this is so much to take in
yes i have spoken with the dr. about her reflux and yes she has it.  I don't do medication so i try and monitor her by not feeding too much and keeping her upright for a while after she drinks.  It was getting better at one point but now i am not sure.  It can also be the donor milk and not knowing what the mom has had when pumping for that session.  i try and find moms inline with my eating habits but it doesn't always work.  it kills me to hear her scream and be uncomfortable.  i wouldn't even know where to start with formula either, thinking she could have the same reaction with that too.  We just started a little solid food, not much though since she isn't sitting on her own yet. hoping that will help her all around once we get it going.

OK so i will work on the 3.5 hours between feedings and go from the time she starts to the time she starts instead of end to start.
with regards to the activity and making it shorter times, sometimes its just not possible for me to get her to sleep earlier than i am already.  she doesn't really transfer well at all so if we are out and she falls asleep in the car and we move from one place to another, even keeping her in her seat she wakes up.  She can function on a 20 minute nap and then she's up for another hour or so.... putting my whole E.A.S.Y. off kilter.   I also babywear so she is wrapped up on me a good bit and sleeps there - cat naps...

I will try a faster teat.  Did i read somewhere that it takes a day or so for LO to get used to the faster speed?  Right now she times about 19 -22 minutes for a bottle.  if i go over the 5oz mark its about 26 minutes.

with regards to the DF.  i don't know if i ever really get it before she starts to stir so when i say i DF her at 11:30 or 12:30 its when hear her fuss in bed then i go in with the bottle and as quietly as possible do a feed, hoping that she doesn't startle herself up. sometimes I'm successful others I'm not.  I try and do the same thing in the middle of the night.  those are often more interrupted from her eliminating during the feed causing me to change her. or even worse she wakes before a feed because she's soiled her clothing.

So would you say its safe to say that the DF is disrupting her and unless i hear her to skip it and just feed when she's ready instead?

one thing we are working on is a schedule/routine for the whole family.  I just hired a 'mothers helper' so with that and some scheduled classes for my DS i should be able to get things in alignment for DD as well.  I HOPE.

thanks for answering my questions and helping us out.

[cosmicangel007]

Ive been following all your suggestions and sleep is still off
Her naps are 45 min long and she wakes crying. I am very alert as to when the 45 min will be happening so I try and get her back down. If I am successful it's for maybe another 15 minutes

SHe goes down for BT between 7-7:30 and around 9:45 she russles around and wakes herself up
Last night I was not able to get her back so I did her feed then which caused a mess of a night.  Up from 2-5am even with a feed in the middle. And then sleeping on me for 50 minutes.
Ugh this is difficult.
I just got her back down and will do a DF just before 11 then hope for a smoother night then Last!

What do I do about her naps? I've cut the A time shorter like you said but now I think she is UT
Although it is much easier to get her down for naps. I changed up the nipple on the bottle and she's done with the 5oz in less then 15 minutes.
She drains the bottle but we are at 30oz for the day. Not sure I should increase that or start to remove some from the NF and add it to the day feeds?

I know lots of questions here.  I feel at a loss.
Plus im all alone with the 2 kids and I'm drained

Thanks

[Lolly]

Sorry I didn't get back sooner - my life is crazy busy just now!

Have you tried going in before the 45 mins? I would post over on the naps board, they will help you with timings and see how to get better naps. If it's easier to get her down then it's likely that the A times is right but maybe it's discomfort from the reflux waking her up. Was your Dr willing to prescribe meds for her? If so I would do a trial to see if it helps.

If she is draining bottles then you need to add another oz that's all feeds - there should be enough in the bottle so that she can stop because she is full and not because the bottle is empty so there should be a little left at the end of a bottle feed. Don't cut any from the nightfeed, if she is taking it and keeping it down then it's the right amount for her.

{HUGS} it's really hard this baby business.

Laura

[cosmicangel007]

thanks,
I'm on the sleep board with a few questions at this time also and working through things.

as far as adding to the bottle. i have been adding to the BT bottle and she downs that one too!  i've increased it by 2 oz!
do you think i should add 2 oz to each of her bottles?  omg that would be 12 more oz putting her over 40oz a day.... is that right??

i honestly feel like she will never stop on her own, she needs to see that bottle drained!

thoughts?
thanks

[Martini~]

Hi Hon:)!

Don't worry so much. At 5-6mo something around 7-8oz could be considered as a full feed, so if she is taking 5-7oz it's still very normal. I know that you are afraid that her daily intake will increase horrendously, but I wouldn't be too afraid. She probably needs couple of days to understand that she doesn't need so much milk (now she is probably so excited that there is so much milk going so easily from the bottle:D), and hopefully she will start to cut her night feeds. What may happen is that she will cut off her daily intake if you will try to feed her too often, which you wouldn't like so than I would advise stretching feeds back to 4h (but only if she is not taking a full feed every 3.5h and doesn't seem so hungry at 3.5h mark). When her feeds will be closer to 7-8oz she could go probably longer between feeds than 3.5h. Ideally her "milk calendar" could look like that:
7am 7-8oz
11am 7-8oz
3pm 7-8oz
7pm 7-8oz
DF around 11pm or one night feed OPTIONAL if she needs it and how much she needs.

Her daily intake at this age can be around 36-40oz as no solids but already a grown up LO:) so until she is not taking more, you shouldn't be too afraid.