Missing Drowsy Stage

[FatherTed]

We're having lots of trouble with naps with our son who is 13 weeks.

We think the crux of it is that hes not able to reach the drowsy stage. I think thats stage 2 "The Zone" - its possible he just enters the zone but then snaps back out of it.

We're fairly sure we get the window (not always, but we're pretty sure we know when we do), and we're tried starting earlier just to see.

So today for his afternoon nap, I took him to his room, he started crying straight away (hope hes not got nap-trauma). He cried on me for around 30 minutes. I had to use rocking etc as well as shhsing to keep the crying from escalating. Then suddenly, bang, out like a light, asleep on me. There was no inbetween stage, hardcore crying, then asleep. We have tried putting him down, or not rocking, but his crying escalated to a point we're not comfortable with (hes crying pretty loudly as it is - I couldn't shhhs loud enough lets put it that way).

The *only* thing that gets him drowsy is feeding. If he has a good feed before a nap hes hits that drowsy stage, and can be put down.

However we've been advised not to feed him too often because he wasn't putting on weight, so we're not allowing him to comfort feed - to ensure he gets a good feed when he does. And also we wanted to break the feeding to sleep habit anyway, although we might not have done it this early without being advised to.

He will usually sleep in the buggy, front pack or car. But thats not always a practical option. And its not reliable, nor lengthy - half an hour is about as good as it gets.

I guess our question is, what others ways (other than feeding) are there to wind him down to that drowsy state? Any ideas welcome - we've tried everything we can think.

You'd swear he was angry that we're suggesting he takes a nap... even thought he desperately needs it.

[jessmum46]

He sounds like he might be a bit spirited? 100 miles an hour to fast asleep is not uncommon at all, so this is probably one of those situations you need to try calming in the cot rather than holding unless absolutely necessary.  It's a good thing to keep in mind you are not trying to stop the crying or stop it escalating - crying is his way of communicating with you, in this case 'I'm tired and I need to go to sleep'.  What you could try is thinking about it just a little differently, so that rather than actively trying to 'make' him sleep, you concentrate on giving him the opportunity for sleep and being there with him if he's finding it difficult. Shh pat in its traditional way didn't do it for my DS at all but what he does like is having his head rubbed, sometimes a shh or a hand resting on him if he's really escalating.  He does however calm quicker in the cot even if really upset so I just stay with him and 'be' with him while he cries, rather than 'doing' too much. I've not explained that brilliantly - does it sort of make sense?

Did you want to post your routine or a typical/recent day just to see if there's anything obvious that could be making things a bit harder for you?

[FatherTed]

Thanks for that. That makes sense for sure.

When I say I am trying to keep the crying from escalating, what I mean is from already full-on crying (which we are OK(ish) with), to crying where hes choking and sounds like he might be sick (which we're not so OK with).

This partly came about because we have also been trying to settle him in his cot, but he cried much quicker, so we picked him up.

Two things then:

1/ Are you saying that we should let him cry that bit harder, even though to us he seems pretty distressed? Seems then to be pretty much the cry it out method, just physically being there throughout?

2/ Is 30 min of this normal on-goingly? Or would you expect it to reduce as he gets used to it?

[jessmum46]

Hugs, it is not at all fun when they get so distressed

I'm not suggesting at all that you don't pick him up to calm him if he is that upset. As his parents, and the ones there with him, you are absolutely best placed to decide when you need to intervene and how.  Please don't ever reach a point where you feel uncomfortable doing what you are doing - your instinct is almost certainly right and if you think he needs the extra reassurance, he probably does.

The only reason I suggested calming in the cot as much as you can was because he is falling asleep so suddenly in your arms. Some babies do just go from crying hard to fast asleep, and if he is one of those babies it kind of makes sense that some of that crying will have to happen in the cot. The aim of shh pat is not to prevent crying, BW is not a no-cry method (there are other methods out there that claim to be so) but there is a world of difference between crying with a parent who is trying to comfort and soothe, and CIO.  In Tracy's description of shh pat at this age she even said to pick LO up if things are getting way out of hand, so that is definitely an option.

Normally you would expect crying to reduce as LO gets used to going to sleep in the cot. However it is important to look at the routine too as ongoing extended crying would make me think OT or possibly UT issues.

I hope that clarifies a bit but please let me know if not, happy to try to answer any more questions

[FatherTed]

OK - thats really helpful and clear. I think we knew at the back of our minds that for him there would be crying involved for him to sleep. We just haven't been brave enough to go that way until now - and thats because we've run out of options.

You say that our instinct is probably right - but I'm not so sure as time goes on (a whole 13 weeks now ) we find that we allow (and are comfortable with) more and more crying, as we realise that its not our job to stop it, and in fact we cannot. So for all we know we may be able to let him cry a bit harder with no ill effect.

For sure there has been some OT & UT but probably the biggest hurdle is that we've never done this to him before, and we've not been especially consistent, so there is going to be a transition period - potentially involving lots of crying.

I suppose if I'm honest, at the back of our minds is, can that amount of crying have any negative consequences? He cried for 2 hours-ish in the car yesterday, with DW singing, touching talking etc, and stopping every 20 mins to get face to face with him. And hes seems semi-upset every since. He slept badly last night, and has been really grumpy today. And just woken from his night sleep after 2 hours (he normally sleeps 5-6). So if he cries for 3-4 naps a day whats he going to be like then? I assume its not the crying itself which has had that effect?

[lily_layne]

My DD cried a lot in her first few months. She was a lot like you were describing and I did worry about it's impact. Like Katherine said, I think crying when you are there to help them is not going to have a long-term impact. I learned to accept that some babies just cry a lot and there's not much you can do except be there. For some LOs crying is a way to block out stimulation - as bizarre as it sounds, it can help them calm down because it blocks out noise.

We rarely saw a drowsy stage either - I kept thinking I'd done something wrong (which I now know wasn't the case!) - it was wild screaming to asleep. Settling in the cot did seem to work better than rocking although it did take a while (10-30 minutes). We played white noise from an app on our iPod and firmly patted or rubbed her back. Jiggling the mattress also worked too.

[Buttonbobs]

Just coming by to add some more support. Our DD would also go from hard cries to fast asleep when she was little. I agree with pps that this could be a sign of OT (as would the 30 min naps often). Would you be happy to post an example day or days in EAS format so we can have a look at it together to see if any tweaks might assist as you work to get him to settle more in his cot?

[Shiv52]

Do you want to post your routine and see if anything stands out?  Sometimes a bit of UT can lead to nap resistance but then OT kicks in?

[clazzat]

I had one who used to cry as if her legs were being cut off when we put her down to sleep and I tried everything to get her to calm down and go to sleep - holding, sh'ing, rocking, you name it! One day she had cried so much that I was completely at the end of my tether and I had to put her down and leave the room for a moment - she went to sleep within about 10 seconds! I finally figured out that the loud hysterical crying meant "leave me the h*** alone, I'm trying to get to sleep!"  I'm not suggesting that you abandon your child to cry if you feel that he needs you, but it might be worth stepping back for a moment, maybe even leaving the room for a short time, to see if he likes a bit more peace and space to go to sleep.

[FatherTed]

Thanks everyone - all very useful comments. I think the message I am taking away from it all is that so long as we have met his needs, we shouldn't be trying to stop his crying, as that is essentially suppressing his emotions. Nor should we be trying to get him to sleep, rather we should be there for him and allow him to work through any emotions himself and then fall asleep himself. That all makes sense - glad you guys were able to expand on this as we didn't pick this up from reading the BW books. We'll have a go on a day we're feeling a bit braver

OK here is an attempt at documenting our EASY routine. Really we are concentrating on watching for his tired signs and acting on them. Every day is different, but this was today and gives some idea I guess.

For now we are focusing on the first nap, and the getting to sleep. Then we will work on later naps, and lengthening them.

Naps are usually 20-30 minutes in length once he falls asleep (too short for sure as he does end up grumpy before the day is out). So if he falls asleep quickly (as he does occasionally) then the sleep section of EAS is reduced.

Age: 13 weeks – Breastfed

Awake time: 1 hr – 1.5hr
Naps: 4 naps of 0.5 hours
Total daytime sleep:  2 hours
Total night-time sleep: 11.5 hours (minus 1-2 feeding times).

E 6.15am
A 6.45
S 7.30 (putting down awake, then picking up after 30 mins, then calming, with about a 20min nap on someone)

E 9.00 – 9.30
A 930 – 10.35 (1005-1035 in buggy, very calm)
S 10.35 – 11.25 (in buggy asleep)

E 11.25 – 12.00
A 12.00 – 14.00
S 14.00 – 14.30 (on someone)

A 14.30 – 15.00 (yes we got out of order here)
E 15.00 – 15.30
S 15.30 – 16.45 (including calming and trying to put down, 45min sleep on someone)

B 5.30 (Bath)
E 6
S 6.45

Night: 1-2 feeds at somewhere around 2 or 10 & 2. But these times vary, its never the same.

This was strangely a good day as well as being a disrupted day at the same time as we had visitors. Some days we only manage 3 naps.

[jessmum46]

When you put him down for his first nap does he lie quietly for a while before getting upset?  It is possible that he is slightly UT to begin with (my LO at just 14 weeks has just jumped up to around 1h30 or so) but then ends up OT by the time he settles which sets up a tricky pattern for the rest of the day.  I generally find that with my LOs if I swoop on tired signs too quickly they aren't quite ready to sleep.  Typical A times at 3 months are an average of 1h20-30 although obviously there is some variability.  That said, that applies to a well-rested LO after night sleep or a good (typically 1.5h or more) nap. After a short nap many people find that they need to shorten the next A time quite a lot to prevent OT - so given some of your afternoon A times are quite long after very short naps, some of the crying you're battling with is almost certainly due to OT.  Just personally speaking, after one of those super-short naps I find tired signs almost impossible to interpret so you may need at times to be a bit more of a clock-watcher.  The amount you need to adjust A time is not an exact science, but say for example a 'normal' A time is 1h30, after a nap of an hour or so I might shorten by around 15 mins (so 1h15) and any less than an hour's nap maybe shorten the next A to 1h or thereabouts. It's a bit of trial and error and you will find the EAS pattern gets messed up. That's pretty common at this age until short naps start to sort themselves out.

In general, if all naps are short you may need to try for 5-6 in a day. It will probably feel like all you do is try to get LO to sleep, so if there is somewhere you can guarantee a good long nap at least once (eg car) then I would try to build that into your day, possibly in the afternoon to try to prevent too much OT and also for your own sanity.  Just to give you an idea (and we by no means have the perfect EASY here!) we are tending to have two longer naps and then 1/2 short catnaps which just about gets us through the day, total daytime sleep of 3.5-4h in general.

Hope that is some help

[FatherTed]

Again all really useful - thanks. You're probably right, he was pretty quiet to start with, so was probably UT.

We find this part all a bit confusing as the advice varies so much, from keep them up a bit longer to be sure they are tired, to put them down earlier to give them enough time to wind down before they sleep.

I guess we just have to try it and see until we hit the sweet spot.

Tell me, what are the effects of UT? (Googling doesn't give me a clear idea).

[Buttonbobs]

Depending on the age of the baby/child the effects of UT can be quite different. With a smaller baby I would expect short naps - possibly 40/45 mins long, waking happy and chatty. Possibly refusing to go down at nap one with lots of crying if you try to sleep train.

Then after the short nap they might be more grumpy as the short nap won't have been restorative enough.

the older a child gets the easier it is to see UT, in my DD she'll wake lots and want to play in the middle of the night. I wouldn't necessarily expect this in a young baby though.

[FatherTed]

Update: Well yesterday we put him down for his first nap of the day directly into his bassinet and then stroked/shhsed him, and after around 30mins of crying he went to sleep himself! So big win there - thanks for everyones help

Then with his second nap yesterday he cried for around 45mins but didn't sleep and didn't appear to be getting any closer.

First nap today he cried for around an hour but didn't sleep. He's now a bit hoarse unfortunately (sounds like a smoker) - I assume this isn't anything to worry about?

Also what do people think about how long to continue this for? From BW somewhere is says to try for 40mins then stop that nap attempt. Somewhere else it says don't stop until they go to sleep. We don't want to give up too soon, but we don't want to exhaust him completely either.

Our current plan is to try the first nap of the day this way, and if it works then try the second. Then either way all other naps that day in the carrier/buggy/on someone to ensure he gets some good sleep before nighttime. Hopefully this combination won't be too confusing for him?

Thanks again

[Buttonbobs]

What times did you try for naps yesterday? Can you post your day for us to look at.

It sounds like a good plan to tackle one nap at a time, it can feel like too much to try to work on all naps at one time, this will help your DS to learn the skills needed, while giving you some rest too.