45 minute naps...Am I ready for the 3-2 nap transition?

[FroggyMom]

Hi ladies,

DD just turned 6 months old, and lately we have been having problems with short naps.  She will fall asleep independently (for the most part), but will on only sleep about 45 minutes.  Occasionally, she will sleep about 1 hour 45 minutes...but more and more it's becoming the dreaded 45 minute nap.  She sleeps through the night on her own though.  I signed on here to get advice for extended the 45 minute nap, but in looking around I saw that 6 months old is a common time for the 3-2 nap transition which I had not even considered.  Could you guys look at her typical routine and let me know what you think?

wake up:  8:30 am
E:  8:45 am (has to sit up 30 min after each feeding due to reflux)
A
S:  10:30 -11:30 am (I have tried to keep her up a bit longer but she always seems ready to go lay down after being awake about 1 hr 45 for the first nap for some reason)
play from 11:30 am -12:30 pm
E:  12:30 pm
A
S:  2:30 - 4:15 pm
E:  4:30 pm
A
S:  6:30 -8:30 pm
E:  8:30 pm
A
S:  9:30 pm

These are all just estimates as everyday seems like a different schedule with her based on whether she took an actual nap versus a 45 minute nap.  How long of an A time should I shoot for at 6 months?  Do I try to reduce to 2 naps?  If so, how do I go about doing this?  Thanks so much for your help ahead of time! 

[creations]

All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months

Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!!

A time would be about 2.5-3hrs at this age.
Often babies appear ready to go down for their nap due to habit, if she's been having a nap after 1hr 45 or 2hr for a while then she'll just be ready for it the way adults usually go to bed at the same time each night. You can increase her A time by 15 mins with low key activity, hold it there for a few days then increase again. You may see a longer first nap then.
Her second A time looks like 3hrs already so I would leave that at 3hr without increasing for now.

Is the third nap really 2hrs or is this a typo?

[FroggyMom]

Thank you so much!  I was just letting her lay down when she seemed tired.  I didn't realize I had to actively stretch out her A time.  I have been trying to do this the past few days.  Sometimes she has been stretching her nap out; however, a lot of times she is still waking between 30-45 minutes.  If I catch her right as she does it, I can run in and give her pacifier back, and she will stretch out her nap longer.

Is the third nap really 2hrs or is this a typo?

It is sometimes 2 hours...sometimes 1 hour...just depending on when she wakes.  I am confused as to how to end her day but still have her finish her last bottle.  So, say an ideal day for her with 2.5 hour A time would look like this:

wake up:  8:30 am
E:  8:45 am
A
S:  11 am -1 pm
E:  1 pm
A
S:  3:30 pm - 5 pm
E:  5 pm
A
S:  7:30 pm - ? *****
E 9: 30

*** So, I'm confused about this time of night.  If she has already had her two naps, she is not supposed to take a third at this age I'm seeing.  But, she can't stay awake from 5 pm until her last bottle at 9 or 9:30 pm.  Is this area a third nap?  Or is 7:30 pm considered bedtime and the last feed is a dream feed?  But, with her it's not really a dream feed.  She is totally awake for last bottle and up at least an hour because takes 30 minutes to eat and sits up 30 min due to reflux. 

[weaver]

Hey lovey,
First of all, yes yes and yes again, you are ready for the 3-2!

I think we need to rethink your routine a bit. Are you open to that?  Let me just tell you what I'm thinking, you can have a read and a think about it.

I would aim for a 12 hour day, no longer. If she's up at 8.30am, she needs to go to bed at 8.30pm at the latest.  Choose whatever time suits you, but for the first while I would deliberately try to have the same WU time every day.  Say for a week or two.  It makes it easier for you to work out when nap time falls and so on

As creations so rightly says, average A at this age is around 2.5-3 hrs.  This is an average, so it's a guideline for you.  You are likely to find that baby's optimal awake time, after which you get a good nap without her being overtired, is somewhere in this zone.  Often babies have a short first A, but yours does look super short, so I'd encourage her to go a little longer.  Just try to tack on 10 mins, keep the new time steady for a few days, see if that helps her go longer than an hour.  An hour really is an 'undertired' nap, in that she is getting a good bit of sleep but not as much as she 'could', iyswim, hopefully we can get her to 1.5 hrs or so.  Looks like she's doing a good 3 hr A in the middle of the day, so she can probably handle it

At the moment, that last nap is just keeping her awake too long, if that makes sense. If she's waking at 4.15, then I would be trying to get her to sleep, for the night, around 7pm.  At that age, I would've been doing 4.15 feed, maybe 6pm feed and then bedtime routine. 

I am asking some experience reflux mamas about dreamfeeds and reflux, so bear with me, hopefully someone will pop on.

How does all that sound to you?

[creations]

Sometimes she has been stretching her nap out; however, a lot of times she is still waking between 30-45 minutes.  If I catch her right as she does it, I can run in and give her pacifier back, and she will stretch out her nap longer.

If you increased the A a little and she increased nap length a little she might then get used to the increased A time and need a little more, this is why we usually do it in stages.  If you have settled on 2.5hrs you may need to increased to 2hrs 45 for the first A time.
You can also teach her to extend the nap. If she has been waking after one cycle for a little while this can become habitual, you are doing great helping her to sooth back off to sleep that a start as it teaches her she is to sleep longer. You can also try a W2S, go in before she wakes (go in at 30 mins unless she is regularly waking at 30 mins in which case go in at 25 mins) and shush/pat or whatever your soothing method is right through the transition from one cycle into the next. You may need to spend up to 20 mins with her to get her into a deep sleep. After a few days see if she can do it alone.
W2S may work on it's own now you have increased the A time a bit, or she might need another little A increase plus the W2S.

S:  7:30 pm - ? *****

This is bed time.  You can give her another feed just before BT, say 6.30pm if she is sleeping at 7.30pm. It doesn't matter that a full E time has not passed before the feed, this quite often happens at BT.
Don't worry that she has another feed at 9.30pm. My DS's DF was never a DF either, he always woke for it and I also gave him a nappy change.  The difference is this is treated as a night feed, dim lights, no/little activity, just the milk and the sitting time, then back into bed.  The DF (or NF) can be weaned around 7 or 8 months so this is only a temporary situation with this feed time.

hope this helps
(posted same time as Weaver)

[creations]

I am asking some experience reflux mamas about dreamfeeds and reflux, so bear with me, hopefully someone will pop on.

It really depends on the reflux and the baby. Some eat well at BT and NFs as they are so relaxed they don't have the same difficulty they have in the day. Some need to sit up.  Mine could take his BT feed and "awake DF" and go straight back to bed without sitting.

[FroggyMom]

I think we need to rethink your routine a bit. Are you open to that?  Let me just tell you what I'm thinking, you can have a read and a think about it.

Yes, I am definitely open to that!  I have been trying to rethink it and fit everything into a 12 hour day myself...but was having trouble doing so!  First of all, let me tell you what her schedule has looked like today:

wake up:  8:30 am
E:  9 am (bottle)
     10 am solids (just starting cereal)
A:  8:30-11:15 am (2 hr 45 min)
S:  11:15 am - 12:45 pm (1.5 hour nap but had to go in and give paci to help her stretch a few times)
E:  1 pm
A:  12:45 pm - 3:05 pm (2 hr 20 min)
S:  3:05 - sleeping now
E:  5 pm

So, my question is...assuming she sleeps well and eats again at 5 pm....what would the rest of our night look like?  Normally, I would give her last bottle again at 9 pm...but that would keep her up more than 12 hours.  So, what time would you aim for last bottle, bed time, etc.?  She eats 4 bottles of anywhere between 7-8 oz each time a day.

If you increased the A a little and she increased nap length a little she might then get used to the increased A time and need a little more, this is why we usually do it in stages.  If you have settled on 2.5hrs you may need to increased to 2hrs 45 for the first A time.

I'm having a little trouble being consistent for a few days I believe.  She seems to get tired after different awake times, and then I've been trying to keep her up by doing a low key activity for 15 more min.  Is this okay or should I be aiming for a set A time every time?

With W2S, is this meant to go in before she ever wakes up and stay through to the next sleep cycle?  How do I know when she has reached the next sleep cycle?

This is bed time.  You can give her another feed just before BT, say 6.30pm if she is sleeping at 7.30pm. It doesn't matter that a full E time has not passed before the feed, this quite often happens at BT.

This is where my confusion is in keeping her up too long I believe.  I thought if she didn't have a full 4 hours between bottles she wouldn't be hungry enough to eat again.  What would be an acceptable time to wait between feedings?  Should I expect her to still take a full 7-8 oz. feeding or less?  Thank you so much ladies! 

[*Liz*]

^^^^ exactly that.

Both of my older refluxers were never dream fed - I just found the combination of breast feeding and reflux made it more trouble than it was worth so just fed them when they woke instead.

Night feeds/ dream feeds in a refluxer usually end up with baby asleep on mamas chest waiting until they can be put down. Does your LO not nod off whilst you hold them? I know it isn't ideal for independent sleep etc.... But in reality that tends to be what happens.

My DS2 is obviously far younger but I just have him on my chest, or half propped up in my arm/ on my pillow until he stops gulping and gasping, then I lie him back down. He isn't often sick, but I can really hear the milks churning around so it is kind of easy to tell when I can get him back. Length of time can be quite variable - sometimes it is just 10 mins others it can take a good 30+.

We all do routine stuff slightly differently, but I think I would be doing a small bottle at 5pm so that I could give a bedtime bottle, and then seeing whether I needed a DF or one NF or not  . I do like my 7pm bedtimes  .

[FroggyMom]

Dd1 was a refluxer and she also took df and nf then went straight back to sleep.  In fact they were the best feeds for her.

I've actually never tried to feed her and let her go right to sleep.  I have always stuck to holding her upright for 30 minutes after every feed. 

Night feeds/ dream feeds in a refluxer usually end up with baby asleep on mamas chest waiting until they can be put down. Does your LO not nod off whilst you hold them? I know it isn't ideal for independent sleep etc.... But in reality that tends to be what happens.

Well, when she was younger, yes...after her NF she would fall asleep on my chest.  I would wait 30 min and then lay her down.  Now, she will no longer fall asleep ever after a late feed while I'm holding her.  So, she ends up being awake too long at night because after her feed...I hold her while she is awake for 30 min...then lay her down.

My DS2 is obviously far younger but I just have him on my chest, or half propped up in my arm/ on my pillow until he stops gulping and gasping, then I lie him back down. He isn't often sick, but I can really hear the milks churning around so it is kind of easy to tell when I can get him back. Length of time can be quite variable - sometimes it is just 10 mins others it can take a good 30+.

So, is holding LO upright for 30 min not a hard and fast rule?  That is what our pediatric GI said to do when she was first diagnosed at 4 weeks so we have just always stuck to it.  Maybe I should ask again?

We all do routine stuff slightly differently, but I think I would be doing a small bottle at 5pm so that I could give a bedtime bottle, and then seeing whether I needed a DF or one NF or not  . I do like my 7pm bedtimes  .

If she normally eats 7-8 oz., how much would you aim for at 5 pm?

[creations]

So, my question is...assuming she sleeps well and eats again at 5 pm....what would the rest of our night look like?

I'd feed at 5 and again at BT timing the milk for whenever BT needs to be so 6.30/7pm E and 7.30pm S gives her 2.5hr A time between the nap and bed time.  I just wouldn't worry about it being the full 4hrs. It happens lots when routines change.  For instance if/when you start getting 2 really good naps and her A time needs to increase then BT might move a bit later (making 8pm - 8.30am night for example, wow I am jealous of the 8.30 WU!!). The other milk E times in the day start to stretch beyond 4 hrs too if she's sleeping longer and as solids become part of the routine too.

Is this okay or should I be aiming for a set A time every time?

the 2hr 45 you give in the EASY above looks like it gave a decent nap even if she needed a bit of help. I'd aim for that every day for several days and see how things go. If she settles into the long nap great, if not she may need a touch longer.  For the majority we follow LOs cues, if she was very tired because she was poorly or had had a very stimulating A time we'd take that into account etc, but when you are tweaking a routine a bit of clock watching is helpful.

With W2S, is this meant to go in before she ever wakes up and stay through to the next sleep cycle?  How do I know when she has reached the next sleep cycle?

You will likely notice a change in her breathing and she will appear more deeply asleep
How do I address habitual wakings? (wake-to-sleep and other methods)
there are 2 options for naps if you scroll down. I am suggesting option 1 but if this doesn't sound like it suits then you can use option 2.

[creations]

So, is holding LO upright for 30 min not a hard and fast rule?

It doesn't always help. You need to do what works for your LO really. Mine could bring up milk 3hrs after his feed (I switched nappy change to before feeds to avoid laying him down after a feed for nappy change) so 30 mins wouldn't be particularly helpful.  We kept him upright when he needed it in the day though as much as possible.  At night, no problem, milk and straight into bed, always his biggest feeds too.

If she normally eats 7-8 oz., how much would you aim for at 5 pm?

I'm sure Liz will be back with her suggestion. I always just gave mine however much he would take.

[weaver]

I see you also have a post on the bottle feeding board, so between us all, hopefully you'll get sorted.

[FroggyMom]

Thank you all for your help!  I will respond to the latest posts when I get a chance (in the middle of dinner, BT, etc. with DS).  As for DD, she slept like a champ for her 2nd nap:  2 hrs 20 min!  I couldn't believe it.  So, she woke at 5:25 pm and ate 7.5 oz. at 5:35 pm.  With a 8:30 am wake up time, would I shoot for 8:30 pm BT with an A time of 3 hours?  That means I would have to feed her again by 7:30 pm.  I'm worried about only having 2 hours instead of 4 before feeding her another bottle...especially with the reflux I don't want to fill her too full.  Do I feed a whole bottle if she wants it....less?  Thoughts?

[creations]

Wow - long nap!
If you think she can do 3hr A following that good long nap then yes I'd do that. Some LOs need an earlier BT when they drop one nap so if you don't think she can do a full 3hrs that's ok too (previous to the thread her afternoon A was 3hrs so I think she can manage it but you know her best. Mine always liked a long first A and very short last A of the day so it is quite individual, not all the A times of the day need to be exactly the same).
I never had any problem giving DS milk at BT even if it had not been the full length of time between E.  Many times I had to give EBT during routine changes and that just meant feeding early at whatever time BT was. Younger babies cluster feed before BT so I just saw it as similar to that.
I just gave him as much as he'd take.

[*Liz*]

My DS2 is much smaller, but if I predicted the feeds would be very close then I reduce the bottle a bit. So today he wanted a feed at 4.45pm, and bedtime bottle is 7pm, so I gave 3oz at the first and 4oz at the second.

He usually takes 4oz, and 3oz is really the minimum that I can feed to satisfy him iyswim? But it gives me enough appetite for the next bottle.

I'm afraid you will just have to see if it affects the reflux too much. I find that with 5oz DS is a bit 'over full', but after being held upright for 30mins he tends to sort himself out really.