Sleep-resistant 14 wk old - UPDATE! questions about naps

[kyleian]

Last night she went to bed early and didn't wake an hour later (like she had the previous night...) but only did a 3 hour stretch. She was playing at 5, BUT I let her be and she eventually went to sleep! Yay!
But naps are a mess again. She did 30 minutes pretty much on her own (after playing for 30' despite having been up for an hour and a half already...), but hasn't slept since, despite me trying/allowing her to nurse to sleep and before that I'd had two "sessions" of trying to get her to sleep with shush-pat... which she now officially hates, whether I'm holding her or not. She just cries louder and is inconsolable. I let her suck my finger and would remove it whenever she started drooping. unfortunately that didn't work later.

She seems to want to suck EVERYTHING ALL THE TIME right now, though, but sometimes it seems a little more "chewy."... so I hope she's not teething. I had teeth at 4 months and she's 16 weeks now.

I'm willing to try again next week but am so confused as to how it can ever work, since when we're consistent she gets OT and when she's OT she won't sleep. Does it really not work if we AP every other nap?

[newkidontheblock]

Last night she went to bed early and didn't wake an hour later (like she had the previous night...) but only did a 3 hour stretch. She was playing at 5, BUT I let her be and she eventually went to sleep! Yay!

That's good! This says to me that she is catching up on OT. They do sometimes wake in the nights for a bit, just like us really, to get into a more comfy position or any number of things but it is best not to intervene unless they start crying. If she is not crying, let her be and she will hopefully sleep off.

I'm willing to try again next week

Hun, it's a process. You don't have to restart or consider this a failed attempt. Every day you can start fresh. How old is she now? Is it possible that you are in a wonder week? This sure sounds like the fussy period to me.

She might just be teething. Have you tried giving her meds to see if it makes a difference?

Also, it shouldn't take her 30 minutes to fall asleep. That means that either she needs a longer A time or that she needed a shorter one and has now got her second wind.

However you are planning to get her to sleep, please remember to start as you mean to go. You can AP any naps you want but think about whether you would be comfortable doing this a few months down the line.

Here to help you if you want to power on:)

[kyleian]

She had a total melt down last night (I couldn't even AP naps yesterday!) that ended in her going to sleep, waking up 30 minutes later because her hand was up by the neck of the swaddle. DH let it go and she went to sleep with her thumb, slept for 5 hours, then 4!!! The early morning was a bit wonky and we were up early (she wanted to eat at 6, so wouldn't go back to sleep when she was done as we usually get up at 7-7:30).
We decided to keep going with the arm out of the swaddle. She's on her 4th nap, though all so far have been cat naps (37', 50', 38'). Still, it's progress. I've been using my finger to let her suck if she doesn't find her thumb, but remove it when she's calm until she drifts off... not sure if that will back fire or if it's just a very modified shush pat...?

She's a little over 16 weeks, about 15 adjusted (born 10 days early), so I don't think it's a wonder week, though she has usually seemed to line up with birth date, not edd with previous wonder weeks. I think she was just so over tired... but I certainly wouldn't mind having a wonder week over with!

[newkidontheblock]

How are things now?

[kyleian]

Improving, apart from her being tired/unpredictable in the evenings - she's been having melt downs every night, but last night when we were all ready to get her to bed early it was even earlier. But after that she's slept 6 1/2 hours straight the last two nights.
Sunday we were out so she was napping mostly in the carrier, but her two naps at home were both 35-40 minutes, but she went down fairly easily. The wake-up time isn't always the same so I'm not sure how to deal with it, or if I should just give it a few days to see if it's just her getting used to it.

[kyleian]

The last two nights have been horrendous, but I'm chalking that up to me having eaten dairy and that making her reflux flare up.
Naps continue to be short, but we had a small victory yesterday - we were getting the car repaired and I left the carrier in the car and didn't realize it until the car was way up high, but I got her to sleep on my lap with just a blanket over her head, which we've never been able to do since she was a few weeks old.

How should I adjust A time after short naps?

Also, she's started crying as soon as I turn the light off. I'm not sure if she doesn't like it dark, or wants to see, or knows sleep is coming next and doesn't want it (or the process of getting there).

ETA: I'm so confused. Her E is all over the place and inconsistent for how long it is between feedings, which messes everything up and with the short naps leaves us with no sort of EASY whatsoever and it's always a guess as to what she needs.How in the world can you avoid that while sleep training?

[newkidontheblock]

How should I adjust A time after short naps?

I generally reduce by around 15 minutes. Too much and I end up with a UT nap

Also, she's started crying as soon as I turn the light off.

Is this happening for all sleep or only in the night? DD started doing this anytime she was OT. What do you think she's trying to tell you?

Wrt feeds, I would follow her cues. They roughly follow some pattern with their feedings. What's she doing? What does your EASY look like now?

[kyleian]

The only time she's NOT crying as soon as it's dark is at night. I'm guessing OT but am really not sure and often it's pretty intense screaming unless I bring her back into the light (eventually I do just have to put up with it, though).

The last 24 hours:
E: 7:10
S: 7:22 (I was going to get her up but she was sound asleep and had been awake since 6 already)
A: 8:12
S: 9:32
A: 10:03 (31 minutes)
E: 10:07
A: 10:30
E: 11:30 (was trying to put her down; she was acting very hungry still), ate for 10'
S: 11:55
A: 12:40 (44 minutes)
E: 13:43
A: 14:15
S: 15:24 - I started trying at 14:24, took a break, tried again.
A: 16:00 (36 minutes)
E: 17:00
A:17:20
E: 18:00, for 40'
18:50 started putting her down, she wasn't asleep till 19:30 - reflux.
E: 23:50
S: 00:05
A: 1:26...
S: 1:48 (pacifier)
E: 3:50
S: 4:00
E: 5:50 - I had already tried the pacifier
After that I'm not sure how much sleep there was - I know we were both in and out but never very soundly asleep, until 07:30 when we got up for the day. The mornings past midnight have been like that since Monday night.

ETA: First nap of the day was at 8:55, no fussing when it was dark, went down fairly easily... up very happy at 9:30. I guess she could be UT for nap one and then OT for the rest? I just have a hard time believing she was UT since she really hadn't slept since 5:50!

[kyleian]

Naps were good yesterday and today! Still short, but she fights less going down and has had another 50' nap. Today I had to AP two of her naps, but the one at home (she doesn't usually cat nap) was 45', and for the first time ever I was able to extend - and she slept another hour!
Her A times were a bit longer today, too, which I think helped, especially now with her being 4 mo.

Question about feeds - since she's 4 mo it's "ok" to let her go more than 3 hours if she wants, right? Meaning I can let her sleep longer instead of waking her to feed?

Her nights continue to be bad, though. She goes down pretty well but is waking/playing a lot. I'm wondering if I need to put her down more awake in the MOTN? Right now I put her back down pretty much asleep and I'm wondering if that's bringing more wakings. But I know it could just be sleep regression or a whole host of other things, too. The pediatrician said she didn't think she's teething since her gums aren't swollen at all, but said it still could be.

[newkidontheblock]

Oh yes, the crying could definitely be OT. They do have a tough time shutting down if too tired.

Regarding your question on feeds, yes, I would let her sleep and not wake for feeds. Follow her cues. In fact, 3 & 4 hour EASY means mainly stretching the time between feeds, so I think she is telling you that she is ready to be up longer and isn't hungry quite as soon. You don't have to move straight to 4 hours... Many go for a 3.5 hour EASY and then gradually move to 4 hours.

3-4 months is a tough time in general. I don't have much experience with MOTN happenings. If DD woke for a feed, she would drift off while eating and I would put her back asleep. I do think that increasing her A during the day would solve most of these issues

[kyleian]

Yesterday she generally went 3 hr 15 min between feeds. I'm still feeding at 3 hrs if she's up but am letting her sleep more if she wants. Not trying to stretch her out but seeing what she does.
A times were about 1 hr 45 min, but naps were a disaster. First was 30', second she fought and fought and wanted to play and wouldn't settle no matter what so eventually she ended up in the carrier because I knew her third nap would be partially in the car so hit or miss.

Nights keep getting worse. Last night she woke after 2 hr 45 min, but I got her back to sleep for another 2 hr. Then after that it was every hour and a half and I couldn't get her back to sleep without a feed, despite trying, and at 5 AM she just wouldn't and at 6 she was playing. She's running on about 8 hrs of night sleep for the past week and not a whole lot of day sleep, either... which is why I'm not entirely sure I should let her go longer between feds yet or extend A times because she has such a huge sleep deficit.
And finally, any ideas on what I should do with her first A time when she gets up so early but is still in her crib? I feel like I'm going wrong there and that's mesing the rest up.

[newkidontheblock]

You sound so exhausted. {hugs}

As I said previously, have you considered increasing her A times some more? Hun, I don't think you're going to get a resolution to these issues unless you go for it. You will have to push that first A out to 2 hours. Otherwise you are getting an under tired first nap, and then she gets super OT as the day progresses leading to these terrible NWs.

she fought and fought and wanted to play and wouldn't settle no matter what

What was the A time before nap 2? I think she was trying to tell you that she wasn't tired enough to nap yet.

And finally, any ideas on what I should do with her first A time when she gets up so early but is still in her crib? I feel like I'm going wrong there and that's messing the rest up.

I don't understand exactly. Do you mean that she is awake in her crib playing happily? If so, I would leave her. At that age, DD's WU time was 7 am. She would usually be up before that but would chat away & fool around till I went in to her. However, since 6 months, it has worked better for me to count the first A from the time she wakes up - ie: if she wakes at 6.50 instead of 7, I count her A from then. If you feel that she is doing the same, try it out & see how it goes. 

Have you also considered that she might be going through a growth spurt? There is big one at 3/4 months, and you say she won't settle without a feed. That is why Tracy says that at 4 months a window opens where you need to both increase A times and space out feeds. Do you still cluster feed in the evening? That might help to get more calories in her

Hope you get some sleep tonight

Xx

[kyleian]

Some progress the past few days! Not with nights yet, though.
- It seems chocolate (or cocoa, since I eat df chocolate), not dairy, is her reflux trigger. It was getting worse after a week off of dairy and I finally made the connection. It's not gone yet, but is settling.

- Sunday we did 1:45 A times, and it was better. Nap 1:10, though my hand was on her the whole time because she was very restless and I was napping with her. Nap 2 was 1:40, AP because we were out. Then she started drooping in the car at 1:30... so I think she was OT by the time we got home and got her to bed at 1:45, she napped on her own for 45. Unfortunately, both naps on her own were somewhat nursed to sleep. She may be having another growth spurt, as well as me still struggling to feed a distracted baby - too dark and she falls asleep, unswaddled and she's all over the place, too light and she can't stay on. She often eats at 5 and then 6 in the evenings, and at 6 is both sides and often takes 45 minutes.

- when she wakes in the mornings it's usually at 5 that I can't get her back to sleep, and she's whiny for about an hour and then gets happy and plays.

- Today we're trying 2 hour A times. First one was ok. Her nap was a bit restless with getting her hand out of the swaddle. I also probably didn't wind her down enough because we went grocery shopping during A time and lines were long so we got back and pretty much went to bed. I almost didn't try longer A times because of how much she's already awake... but the idea is just to consolidate A times so she ends up with overall less A and more S, right?

- Also, is anything over an hour a "good" or "not short" nap, or is that longer than that? She's been having a number of hour-long naps and I'm not sure whether I should decrease A time after that or not.

It is SO much easier on me during the day now that she at least will take short naps, unlike the first few days when she wouldn't really nap at all. And thanks to you I'm starting to understand more of the thought process with troubleshooting issues. Thanks for the support and helping me see the need to be consistent and get out and try things! Most people I know do either AP or CIO so there's not a lot of help and advice when we're trying to go the middle road.

[newkidontheblock]

Sorry for not replying sooner. My DD has gone a bit off the rails. Sigh

Great detective work figuring out that chocolate was affecting her. Has her reflux settled now?

but the idea is just to consolidate A times so she ends up with overall less A and more S, right?

I didn't understand the question exactly. The idea simply is that they can stay awake longer & need that extra time to be tired out enough to do a restful enough nap. Why they persist in being so complicated is beyond me!:p

Also, is anything over an hour a "good" or "not short" nap, or is that longer than that? She's been having a number of hour-long naps and I'm not sure whether I should decrease A time after that or not.

An hour is fine. I wouldn't decrease after that. Till recently, I would try to extend even after an hour as Tracy said not to be satisfied if naps extend to an hour and stop there but the ladies in my birth club set me straight. Life's too short to keep pat/shushing all day

I'm really so happy that you are finally seeing progress and feeling positive. Keep going. You're doing great! Hugs!

[kyleian]

Hope things with your DD straighten out!

Naps are improving... nights are getting worse. The reflux has settled for the most part, which is wonderful.

Yesterday's naps were 1.20, 55, 12+40, and then 30 for CN. We decided to move E so now we have more of a AEaS which has helped her both wind down and sleep longer because she won't wake hungry.
I think I shortened too much after the 55 minute nap because she fought and fought and then I think was OT.

Last night I don't think either of us got more than 5 hours of sleep. She slept for 2 1/2, I managed to resettle her and she went another hour, but after that I lost track and it was pretty much just always trying to get her to go to sleep but she would not. Sometimes she was playing, other times cranky.
She settled herself to sleep in the first place really easily, so I'm not sure what's going on... she knows how but seems to not be able to do it in the MOTN now, which is why I don't really suspect sleep regression, though it could be.

I am really wondering if it is a wonder week, since I was reading more on it and it says 19 can start as soon as 18 and she usually has been on track or early with them. The sleep combined with all the new things she's doing - rolling to her side, folding her hands, responding to just a voice, pulling mine towards her mouth, feeds all over the place, etc. as well as periods where she'll get cranky for no reason and then be fine a minute later makes me think that.
But, someone also suggested she could sense something off with DH being gone, which I didn't feel like she was old enough for but when I look at the past few weeks the bad sleep started the day he left, with the previous 2 nights being the best we'd ever had (those 2 nights he was home after being gone for a week...). It would be nice if it was such a simple fix, except that he travels a lot!

My third theory is that CN is too late for her now. It's 5-5:30 and she goes to bed at 7, so maybe if she needs sleep between her last nap and BT I should just move BT earlier?

easy yesterday:
A: 6:30
E: 8:00-8:15
S: 8:22
A: 9:44
E: 10:53
S: 11:35
A: 12:30
Forgot to note E...
S: 2:23-2:35, 2:39-3:18
A: 3:18
E: 4:00
S: 5:00
A: 5:30
E: 6:15
S: 6:54
Night time:
A: 9:30, right back to sleep
E: 10:30
And then after that she didn't really go back to sleep, at least not for more than 30 minutes, and ate at 2, 4, and 6. We started our day at 6:30 again.. would prefer 7 but I'm so done working with her by then and she's already been playing a while.