Sleep-resistant 14 wk old - UPDATE! questions about naps

[kyleian]

I've posted in the past, and it was getting better but then we  hit the 3 month growth spurt. It seems every time we have a milestone or growth spurt, her sleep gets worse. Anyway, I'm pretty sure she's OT and we may be trying too much, but sleep is a disaster right now. She's so playful and alert that getting her to wind down has been hard for a long time.

Problem 1: Morning. She wakes in the morning 1.5-2 hours after last eating, and even with the rare 3, often doesn't eat much, and when nap time rolls around, she's actually hungry, eats a lot, then falls asleep (sometimes. See #2). So the day starts out backwards. I've tried getting her back to sleep, letting her be awake for 20-30' then getting her back to sleep, and just starting her day. She's not having it, and it messes up the whole day.
What should I do differently?

Problem 2: Getting to sleep. It takes over 30' to settle her every time, no matter what I do. Some of it has to do with my confusion at her wake times with her being OT and not giving cues. She can't settle in the cot no matter what. If we time it just right, I can settle her out of it, to where she's bascally asleep, and then put her down. She'll open her eyes, stir, let out a few cries, but if I keep my hand on her, will go to sleep. This has happened 3 times, so we know she CAN do it. She used to be out in 10' max with bouncing in a dark room, now even that takes 30'. She will only fall asleep on our chests, but has trouble settling because every jolt her face brushes our chest and it stimulates her. Whenever we try to "fade' and stop rocking/bouncing at some point, she just gets OT because of how long it takes her to get to sleep that way. She will no longer sleep in the car and has never slept  in the pram. When we're out she sleeps in the wrap with a nursing cover over it and falls asleep pretty well, but that doesn't work at home.
We obviously want her to sleep somewhere other than me, but we have no idea what to do or how to help her settle on her own, since shush pat does nothing for her and never has. We are trying to put her down awake in the cot and usually try to help her settle for 15' or so. I sometimes try just holding her, but unless I hold her head against my chest, she just looks around the dark room, and if I hold her head on my chest, she fights and cries unless I bounce her. She almost never gets sleepy and usually goes from fighting to asleep in a matter of seconds. We were trying to use the pacifier to help her settle in the crib, but she can't keep it in her mouth.
Are we trying too much at once? How long should we try something before giving up and moving on to something else so she doesn't get more OT? Is there something else we can/should try?
I feel like unless we have a strategy to help her settle in the cot, then it's just adding to the OT cycle to try, but we need her to sleep there. I was happy to let her sleep on me to "catch up" but that doesn't seem to do much catching up anymore.

Problem 3: staying asleep. No matter where she is, she always jolts awake at 35-45 minutes, cranky, and takes 15 minutes to seem settled, but even so keeps jolting and stirring for another 30', and will wake up fully if I don't bounce/pat her, which I don't want to do, but she's so OT that I need her to sleep. Wake to sleep hasn't worked for us, neither has patting, and neither has weight from our hands. If we let her have a few minutes to fuss, she won't go back to sleep at all. I'm guessing some of it has to do with sleep cycles, but also OT. I can no longer nap with her like I was to catch up on sleep since most of her nap is helping her stay asleep.

Problem 4: night time. She eats till sleepy and then I try to put her in her co-sleeper, and it sometimes works, sometimes not, but never for long, so she usually sleeps most of the night on our chests. She used to consistently go 5 hours, now it's 4 if it's a good night, then 3, then 2, 2 - between feedings, not amount of sleep. From 4 AM onwards, it's a lot of patting to keep her asleep between those 2 hrs, so I get very little sleep then.

Today's EASY... fairly typical of the last week, unfortunately. I know wake times are a bit of a mess, and maybe a bit short now, but I'm so confused about what's going on and what she needs, and trying to help her go to sleep on her own without getting OT.
E: 7:50
A: 8:10
E: 9:00, when I was trying to get her to sleep.
S: 9:34, on me, nursed to sleep.
    10:07 - woke up, even though I did wake-to-sleep and she seemed to settle and be fine. Went back to sleep, but was jolty/stirring/unsettled and needed patting/rocking a lot.
    10:40 - deeper sleep again.
E: 12:00 (took her into the dark bedroom, swaddled, since i think part of the issue is her not eating enough because she gets incredibly distracted by the wall).
A: 12:30
     1:10 - attempting to get her to sleep.
S: 1:45 - asleep, on me.
     2:25 - after attempted wake to sleep, followed by patting, she jolted and needed lots of help to settle.
E: 3:30 (know that's long... she was so asleep and I kept trying to gently wake her).
A: 4:00

Not sure how the rest of the day will be, but she usually eats at 5:30, then wants to eat again between 6:30 and 7, before which I get her mostly ready for bed.

[newkidontheblock]

Hun, I don't have time for a very detailed reply right now but I just wanted to say that I think the main issue seems to be consistency. None of the tools will work if you continue to rock/bounce. These are props that she has come to learn and expect, and with all props, their effectiveness goes down over time and you find yourself doing more and more to achieve the same result. Illnesses, milestones, phases of the moon- there is always something that will mess up sleep. But if you set in place good habits from the start, your good sleeper will come out the other end.

WRT, problem 1, if she is not hungry on WU, have you tried an hour later? Otherwise it is fine to offer sometime before the nap so long as you leave a gap between feeds and sleep. Then maybe a smaller amount on WU from nap and again a good feed sometime before the next nap OR just feed in the middle of the next A time to get back on track. Do you wake her at a fixed time every morning? That helped to eliminate the early morning feed with my DD.

If it is taking 30 minutes for her to fall asleep, maybe she needs a bit more A time? Do you have a good wind down routine in place? A very dark room, swaddle and white noise can work wonders

WRT problem 3, a swaddle would definitely help with the jolts. You could place a folded heavy sheet over her chest too. It helps. With your DD, the key would be having an eye on the clock, since you say that she doesn't show signs until it is too late. Keep activities low key. Maybe spend the end of A time in her room itself or walk around. 3-4 months is prime time for short naps and it's mainly developmental. You have to just wait it out.

Why not just start fresh. Go through the FAQs, especially the one on starting EASY, and try to consistently follow the routine, best you can.

Hope things get better. Hugs

[weaver]

Great advice from Fleur there.   You must be exhausted, sounds like you're up half the night helping her sleep.

I want to suggest also that you have a look at this quiz
The BW "Know Your Baby Quiz"

Knowing your babies temperament can really help with sleep sometimes.  Average A time at this age is around 1 hr 30 mins (from eyes open to eyes shut).

I think Fleur is completely correct about just starting again from scratch. Drop all the various props you've got going, and begin as you want to go on. So you will need to stop boucing and rocking, resist feeding her to sleep (but more to say on that in a minute), and try not to end up holding her all night.  Work on daytime sleep first and night-time should follow suit, hopefully.  Come up with a wind-down plan and stick with it (have a look here:)
What does a good wind down consist of (Includes 4S ritual)
and here
Teaching Sleep- Tips from the boards

Sh-pat can be adapted to something she prefers - my LO2 preferred a cuddle with a firm warm hand on her back, with a bit of a rub and more of a hum than a sh.  The thing is it has to be something that you control and that you can reduce easily as needed.  The rocking isn't going to fit the bill there.  The hand on the back or the classic pat is something you can do holding baba in your arms as they relax and then continue as they go into the cot, that's the key to why it works.  There are some babies who just don't enjoy a long wind-down (my LO2 again!).  That's fine too.  On the other hand, my LO1 was touchy and very sensitive to OT and OS, so he would've acted like he couldn't get to sleep without a rock solid routine (in terms of timing) and a good wind-down.  Some of the jolting and fidgetiness sounds like she might have a touchy streak?

Try to make sure you make a plan before you begin your fresh start, so you know what you are going to go and don't start grabbing at short-term solutions.  Having said that, and as promised more on feeding to sleep, it is an *excellent idea* to have some secret weapons which you know will work if everything goes to pot. Feeding to sleep is the ultimate secret weapon in my book, but don't do it too often or it becomes a prop, going for a walk in the carrier is the same, really helps to know there is something you can do if you need to.

[kyleian]

Thank you!
We do swaddle, but she is outgrowing what we have as well as getting too strong for them. She's also very close to rolling over while swaddled as she doesn't like being on her back, so she fights and wiggles and has almost rolled over.
Our wind down consists of turning the lights off, swaddling, singing, and then holding her, but she's very active and wiggly and doesn't sit still, especially if swaddled.
We try to get her up at 7:30, but if it's been an especially bad night then will let her go or try to keep her asleep till 8.

On the quiz she's mostly textbook and spirited, no touchy. She is incredibly alert and will play and play and play.

In the last few days, mornings have gotten a bit better if I keep it dark and keep her swaddled to feed her. On Sunday she refused to nap at church at first, but she finally fell asleep (in about 2 minutes with minimal bouncing) in the wrap with the cover, after being awake for 3 hours, and since then we've been trying an hour 15 minutes A time. Yesterday she napped a lot better on me and had no wake-ups at 35-45 minutes. Today she did.

I know we need to be consistent, but in the past when we have been, she's just gotten OT and cranky but not slept and then nights are even worse. But maybe after what she did on Sunday she's ready now? I'm just worried she won't fall asleep ever and will just get less and less sleep. :\
And then if she doesn't sleep and then it's time for a feed, do I start trying to get her to sleep as soon as the feed is over?
And working on night time would be harder, but we feel we're in a time crunch for that since my husband will be gone for most of March and I keep getting plugged ducts from her sleeping on me. Is it better to start with naps, though?

[newkidontheblock]

We do swaddle, but she is outgrowing what we have as well as getting too strong for them. She's also very close to rolling over while swaddled as she doesn't like being on her back, so she fights and wiggles and has almost rolled over.

Maybe a woombie might help with this?

Our wind down consists of turning the lights off, swaddling, singing, and then holding her, but she's very active and wiggly and doesn't sit still, especially if swaddled.

I have a textbook spirited too, although the spirited side is relatively new. If you are finding her active and wiggly, then perhaps you need more calming before the wind down. A pre-wind down almost! Keep A times very low key. We walk around the house for a while before going into her room. She might also need that little extra to relax completely.

She is incredibly alert and will play and play and play.

That's why one eye on the clock. You need to anticipate her being tired BEFORE she gets too tired. I always feel with DD that if she is showing obvious sleepy signs, I'm already late. My dd,(and from the sound of it, yours too) have narrow sleep windows. We need to get them to bed in time or they get their second winds.

mornings have gotten a bit better if I keep it dark and keep her swaddled to feed her.

I have been nursing in a dim, quiet room since 4 months. She will simply so distracted and interested in everything except eating! I thought it was a phase but we aren't over it yet: p

I really think you just need to stay fresh. Forget everything about the previous attempts and go for it. Keep a log of your day, it helps. I had two failed attempts before I properly managed to get on EASY. Her sleeping on you is not a permanent solution. Yes, she will get very tired in the process but it will be worth it to have a well rested, independent sleeper. And if hubby is gone in March, it is all the more vital to get started now. I'll be back to check on you later. Let me know how today goes. And remember, start fresh and be consistent

[kyleian]

We decided to start with nights since that's the biggest issue when he's gone, and started last night. She fell asleep 3 times and stayed asleep for 20 minutes (even with shush-patting the whole time - it works to pat her diaper; she won't take it on her side) before waking up two of those times. The third time she was obviously hungry and it had been 3 hours since she last ate (we said 3 hours minimum between feeds early on in the night, and 2 early in the morning, since we knew she could always do that without much trouble and I don't want to deal with stretching time between feeds AND getting her comfortable in the crib at the same time - is that a bad idea?). So I fed her and she settled in the crib after one or two times of being picked up and calmed. But was still very restless for the next three hours, when I fed her again, and same thing - asleep-ish but very restless. At around 5 AM after a feed she was awake but calm and I went to the bathroom while my husband kept an eye on her in case things escalated... she went to sleep on her own, no shushing or patting even. Was awake an hour later after fighting through some gas (and keeping herself asleep!) and wouldn't go back to sleep so at 7 I decided to start the day. She was very happy to be awake.

I plan on APing naps until nights are a little better, to make sure both of us get some sleep... but I'm not sure that's really how it should go - will that just confuse her nights? Right now I feel like I could handle both but don't know if that's over the top for her right now.

We ordered something similar to a woombie (it has a little more leg room for hip movement and can convert to arms-free) and for now are doing a mock miracle blanket with a strip of fabric and a swaddleme - it definitely worked better than just the swaddleme, but she's technically too big for the swaddleme now.

[weaver]

Just another point - if she's spirited, she will also be sensitive to stimulation in the day time.  *she* might want to play and play and play, but it will probably be good for her if you help her have a low-key last part to her A time.  Tracy pointed out wisely that even a mobile or baby gym is pretty stimulating, so just let her hang out on a blanket or give her a snuggle and a look out the window.  It might help her settle better for naps. 

Tracy generally also recommended working on day sleep first, as the night sleep will adjust as the day sleep improves.  But you need to do what feels best to you of course.

[kyleian]

So night 2 was both better and worse. The first three hours she got no sleep and would not settle in our arms. She got very close a number of times in the first hour. My husband finally got her settled with shush pat in the crib and she got close a number of times but then was inconsolable again and it had been 3.5 hours since her last feed so I fed her.
She stirred and kind of fussed a bit when I put her down, but went back to sleep. I slept with ear plugs in so I wouldn't be on edge with her grunting and little noises (she's a VERY noisy sleeper). She slept for 3 1/2 hours, woke to eat, slept for 3 hours, I fed her, and then put her back in bed not expecting it to go well as the morning after 4, but especially trying to get her back after 5, is usually her worst sleep. I don't know how much she was asleep but she didn't cry, and when I woke up at 7-ish she had wriggled her hands out of the swaddle and was sucking her thumb. I woke her up at 8.
Naps yesterday were on me but no more rocking, just patting/ Having a difficult time today getting her full feeds so there's been more feeding to sleepy.

So altogether it IS going better but those first three hours were a nightmare and I feel like she still pretty much fed to sleep in the end, but was hungry (even if it was just habit-hungry). Any thoughts on what to do differently to avoid that happening again? Maybe she needs to go down sooner? She woke from her last nap at 5 and I started her bedtime feed at 6:30 (she finished around 7:30 - it's always a long one. And then I burped her, sang to her, and we started sleep time). Should we leave a hand out so she can get to her thumb (we are not thrilled about having a thumb sucker, but if it helps her a lot then it may be worth it)?
TIA!

[kyleian]

Last night was amazing! 45 minutes with minimal fussing and that was when I left the room, not when she fell asleep. I know there are regressions and tons of factors involved, but it was sooo encouraging. during the night she continues to go right back to sleep. I did free a hand from her swaddle at about 3 am because it was sneaking out and brushing her face and she wanted to suck it.
naps were messy; I'm having a tough time getting her full enough early on because of her distraction. Then nap #3 she slept for 10 minutes and then refused to sleep and was happy for a while, but then was really cranky.

If the next few nights are good, Monday seems to be a good time schedule-wise to start naps. Do you think that's too soon?
And I just want to make sure I know what the game plan is before I start.

How long do I try for each nap?
If she doesn't nap in that time, how long to wait before trying again?
And what's the proper use of "secret weapons," weaver?

Also, with nearing 4 months should I be letting her go longer between feeds when she wants to, or not yet?

[newkidontheblock]

Yay. Happy that you are seeing progress. Keep at it:)

I'm having a tough time getting her full enough early on because of her distraction.

It was around this time that I had to start nursing in a dim, quiet room. She simply would not feed properly otherwise. I had hoped it was a phase that would pass but we are still doing it. It is more relaxing for me too though. And yes, follow her lead with regards to feeds. I remember that Eris stopped wanting to eat on wake up from her nap and instead asked for it a half hour later... More of a 3.5 hour Easy. Many ebf babies can't go 4 hours between feeds to begin with.

Then nap #3 she slept for 10 minutes and then refused to sleep and was happy for a while, but then was really cranky.

Are you in a wonder week period by any chance? 10 minute naps for us are either developmental or overstimulation.

If the next few nights are good, Monday seems to be a good time schedule-wise to start naps. Do you think that's too soon?
And I just want to make sure I know what the game plan is before I start.

Read through all the FAQs. Arm yourself with information and simply simply be consistent in your approach. Once you start, try not to backtrack as it can be very confusing for the little one. As Tracy says, "start as you mean to go." I don't think it is ever to early to start with a good routine, as long as you are listening to your baby and basing your approach on her cues.

I'll let Weaver explain the secret weapons bit more thoroughly but basically these are what you use when all else fails: p

[kyleian]

Nights continue to improve. I started tackling naps yesterday. Yesterday was a nightmare. Screaming inconsolably, cranky during breaks... never got more than 20' naps out of her, no matter if i shh patted the whole time. She did finally go down a little easier. Her night was decent minus swaddle issues.
Today started well. She's getting the hang of going to sleep on her own, but I still haven't gotten more than 45 minutes out of her, and then with the short nap I don't know if I should try to get her back to sleep or let her be up a bit before trying again. What should I do?
She's wide awake and super happy right now, has been all day. She has been eating longer/more often again, so we may be in the midst of another growth spurt which may be a reason for short naps and even more confusing A times.

As far as E, she gets distracted even swaddled in a dark room, but it is improving.

[newkidontheblock]

Nights continue to improve.

Most people work on day time sleep first but I have always found nights fall into place easier with mine.

never got more than 20' naps out of her, no matter if i shh patted the whole time.

20 minute nap indicate OT. Tell me, is it necessary to pat/shush the entire time? Once she is drifting to sleep/asleep, is it possible to slowly reduce until it is just your hand on her, then remove it slowly and leave the room? With my DD, my presence is over stimulating to her and actively works against getting her to sleep.

She's getting the hang of going to sleep on her own, but I still haven't gotten more than 45 minutes out of her, and then with the short nap I don't know if I should try to get her back to sleep or let her be up a bit before trying again. What should I do?

3-4 months is prime time for these 45 minute naps. It gets better as they get older. You could try Wake to sleep, or simply be in the room with a hand on her at that time and pat her back to sleep. If you simply can't resettle, get her up, have some A time, feed her and put her back down.

[kyleian]

Thanks!
She's had one nap today and I didn't need to shush-pat the whole time, just stopped when she was drifting off. So that may be better for her (and me! My arms are so tired from patting all the time!).

She slept for 30 minutes, woke up hungry, and has been hungry every time I try to put her down since that nap, and I'm very hungry and thirsty so I think it's a growth spurt. So I'm not stressing too much about naps because the past few growth spurts she hasn't napped but eats for long periods of time not quite awake, not quite asleep and when she's done is awake and happy as a clam. I'll still keep trying to get her to nap on her own but I'm not going to stress about it till the growth spurt is over, especially not the length of the naps, since she's waking hungry just about every time. It's just annoying as this week was an empty, at-home week which is why I was working on naps; the next weeks I have things I have to get done and be out.
I just hope it really is a growth spurt and not her trying to eat to sleep or something.

[kyleian]

I can't handle it. She's all over the place. Her night was a disaster. She's napping on me today, nursing to sleep since we're both exhausted. I'm sick of spending all day in a dark room. I want to get out and walk but can't when she won't nap so A is short and we're trying to help her sleep on her own/use carrier as last resort till she does it on her own. It just doesn't work to be completely consistent because she gets so ot and hyper and will not settle. I'm exhausted and frustrated and feel like i'm doing everything wrong.

[newkidontheblock]

Hugs, hun. Sorry you are having such a tough time. Do try to get out if possible. You could do the CN at least in the sling. That way you can get out for a while. Go for a walk before naps too. It helps to wind them down