Some guidance, please

[newkidontheblock]

We weaned the swaddle last month and since then, we are up to our necks in 'APing'. BT has always been easy with DD. Put her down & she sleeps off, only needing help when we had a bad nap day. Even then, we would PU - hold for a bit after she stopped crying- PD and keep a hand on her. We had reached a point where we didn't even have to PU. We simply patted/scratched/rubbed the mattress and she would sleep.

Now we are simply at a loss. Her sleeping off without help is a hit & a miss. It doesn't help that her A times are jumping like crazy and we are at 4 hours now, doing 1 nap + CN of 30 minutes. After that CN, she can stay awake for a max of 1.30hrs. But it is like I have a gun to my head to get her down. Even a bit earlier and she needs help. 5 minutes later and she needs help. It used to be that even after 2 good naps of 1.5 hours ending at 5, she would go to sleep at 7. UT was never a problem over here! Now she needs help every second day. And if she doesn't sleep independently, we can't soothe her in the crib. We have to hold her TILL SHE IS ASLEEP and then PD & still keep a hand on her or she will wake in a few minutes. It is driving me nuts. Every day we are digging ourselves in deeper and deeper! And I know that we cannot keep doing this. We need tools..some technique! We are hitting 9 months now, with the sleep regression it brings, then teething will start...there is so much on the horizon..and we need a way to help her sleep! WI/WO was suggested to me but it just makes her cry so much. I ended up nursing her to sleep the other day, which I almost never have to do.

With naps, she will either sleep on her own or we end up holding her for the entire nap! Another thing that we have not had to do. If we PU/PD, after 2-3 PDs, she gets her second wind and then nothing we do will make her sleep. This has led to days when she has stayed up for 6/7 hours at a stretch!I don't even have the time to sleep 'train' during naps as she is sleeping fine for the first one and the second is just 30 minutes, usually at 4.30 or 5..so no time to waste or BT gets pushed even later.

Can anyone suggest a gentle method for us to try?

[weaver]

In a nutshell, Fleur, these issues stem from when you weaned the swaddle, and that is combining with leaps in A time.  Is that right?

How is she sleeping now?  I mean, in what? Can you use a light sheet tucked in over her to recreate a bit of the security of swaddling? 

Her A times will settle down, of course they will. As for 9 mos definitely bringing a sleep regression, honestly I would say that all babies are individuals and this may not happen with Eris.  It wasn't something I noticed with my two.

Can you post an EASY?  Maybe her day is a bit off? That's what I generally find if a previously independent sleeper goes off.

[newkidontheblock]

Right now she is sleeping in a sleep sack. She is not having a problem sleeping without the swaddle anymore. We were using a tucked in sheet for naps but not anymore. She turns over on her tummy or side and sleeps off.

On days that she needs help, it is down to routine issues, undoubtably, more so since we are in this 2-1 limbo. But what is bothering me is that I don't know how to help her other than what I mentioned above. If she is OT/UT, she just gives up and cries for help, without even trying to settle, as she previously used to.
Our EASY most days is this
7- WU
11-12.40 - nap 1 (1.5 to 2 hours long)
4.45 - 5.15 - CN
6.50 - sleep (no issue)
I adjust BT depending on what time the last nap ended.

Is WI/WO the only solution? As I enter the room, the volume of the crying goes up, touch her & it goes even higher. I try patting her bum, stroking her back but she starts crying & retching. I PU immediately and then she goes into the cradle position and falls asleep. When this started, I would keep putting down after she had been quiet for a while but it would start all over again. And if I let this continue too long, I can get her to sleep but we will have tons of OT wakings soon after. I feel like I am stuck between a rock & a hard place.

[weaver]

WI/WO was not a success for either of mine as they'd both go bananas at the idea that you'd leave (sounds like Eris).  I had to stay in the room and do GW, so don't feel bad about that.  Generally I would not PU, but rather sit beside the cot (on the floor in fact) and pat the mattress and say it was time to lie down, I'll stay with you etc.  Once lying down I would rub their back if they needed further calming, or just sit and be.  Try to maximise the amount of low-key calming you do with your voice, and minimise PUs.

If it's happening for all sleeps, it is as you say related to UT/OT.  You'll get to a good routine soon and it should settle down.  Honest.

[newkidontheblock]

Thanks Anne. After months of trying our best not to create any props, I feel overwhelmed with how far we've fallen. We actually haven't been using our voices at all, especially at BT. I thought it might be too stimulating. I will definitely give it a try. And I will read up about gradual withdrawal.

[weaver]

No honey, don't beat yourself up!  She's in a phase where she needs help.  It will pass!

[newkidontheblock]

Do you really think so? My little girl is having such a hard time with sleep and I am clueless as to why! No matter how things have gotten with naps and illness, night sleep has been fine. And now it seems to constantly be taking a beating. She is doing a beautiful 2 hour morning nap but resisting the CN and BT, which I have read is classic behaviour during 2-1. But I feel terrible for the amount of APOPing I am doing because sooner or later, I will have to pull the rug out from under her and it won't be fair. We have so much happening at work at the moment that I can't even contemplate sleep 'training' right now. I really need someone to give me a good talking to!

WRT the CN - She has been resisting the CN in the sling. And no matter where she naps off, she sleeps for only 30 minutes, which now seems to have dropped to 25ish. Is this normal in this transition?

It just all seems pretty bad. We are in a wonder week and she does clearly need the help, otherwise why wouldn't she sleep, right? But how much is too much?

[weaver]

Do you really think so?

Yes I do

Ok so Eris is 8 mo and sounds like she's in the 2-1. LSN? Has she always been on the high end of  A times?  I think perhaps you need to push the morning nap a bit later and try skipping the CN.

And I'm going to get Heidi in here to talk LSN

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Hi Fleur! DD3 is the LSN needs queen at our house...we were on one nap by 7.5 months. So just to make sure I caught it all...you are using apop for all sleeps? Is she having nw &/or ew? I would for sure attempt a push in morning A time and a one nap day. She may be okay to alternate one and two nap days, but we did cold turkey for the most part. I have to stick the kids in bed and run to a meeting but I will be on later to read your thread more thoroughly!

[newkidontheblock]

Morning ladies. Thanks for taking the time to help me.

E's A has always been on the higher side but nothing like Eliotte from what I have read. She can do very long As through the day but needs a short one before bed. We have been on 1 nap + CN for nearly 2 months now, and it was working out beautifully with a 1.5 -2 hour morning nap + 30 minute CN & EBT 1.30mins later. Whatever sleep she didn't get in the day, she tacks on to night sleep, so we were getting 13 to 13.5 hour nights. Basically, I just need the morning nap to end by 12.30 max and we're good to go.

The morning nap has always been easiest for us, so in some time, I'm sure it will get pushed to a time when I can drop the CN and just move BT super early for a few days and/or keep CN and push BT for a while until she can cope. We seem to be on the right track with this.

In my first post, it mistakenly sounds like the issues we are facing are swaddle related. She was back to sleeping independently on day 2 of swaddle weaning. The issue is that when she needs help, we are unable to soothe her other than letting her fall asleep on us. She is sleeping completely independently for the morning nap. CN was in the sling but I would PD in the crib every couple of days without an issue, until these last 2 weeks. BT was no problem at all until recently. She has slept independently 5 times in the past 2 weeks. We are not getting any NWs or EWs but if I do PU/PD at BT, then we get an EW with a 10 to 10.5 hour night.

So yes, 2 main issues - BT & CN refusal, which seem to be a part of 2-1 transition but I am stuck in this limbo until her A times get a big higher. Main Problem - No tools/techniques to soothe her other than AP.

Help?

[Kellyjs]

Hey hun, we had the exact same thing at this age. DD also liked a short A to BT so I felt like an absolute failure when she refused the CN.

The only difference with us though was DD was/is completely resistant to AP, but the nights were horrendous with hours of ssh/patting or just trying to get her back to sleep. It turned out I was expecting too much sleep off her overall. I was hesitant yo wake her from her first long nap as I was expecting CN refusal but I think that compounded the issue.

What I did find with DD is that I could keep pushing that first A. Never really did get OT nap issues just OT at BT. Do you think Eris could handle another jump in A first thing?

I really wouldn't worry too much about the apop, it can always be rectified if she was an IS before. DD goes through periods of calling me back in at night or at BT but it always does pass x

[newkidontheblock]

Thanks for the advice and especially on not worrying too much about the APing. That's the part that is troubling me the most.

I don't think she can do a longer A in the morning yet as she seems to keep falling asleep during the wind down itself! But we're just getting done with Leap 6, and her times usually jump right after. Looking at my logs, it seems that whenever she does an extra long A before the CN (due to refusal) she sleeps off at BT without a problem. But that A also seems to depend on the length of first nap. I'm experimenting today to see if it works. This uncertainty is really getting to me!

[weaver]

I'm thinking cap the am nap.

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

^^yup same here, and bring the catnap earlier. By this age I can totally see where that short A to bedtime is leading to shenanigans. If she has been on the same routine for two months and now is having issues that to me is a sure sign of a tweak needed. We flipped to one nap with all 3 kids once they could handle about 4.5 hours of A time, and you may find once you are at that point she can take a longer midday nap and have enough A before bed to still get a good night's sleep. To me if she is needing such full on apop and isn't ill/teething/having sa then ut seems a likely culprit. Elliotte is definitely at the extreme end for low sleep but until I clued in and really jumped her A times she was hard to get to sleep...turns out she is a decent independent sleeper if she has the A time she needs!

[newkidontheblock]

So keeping in line with your advice, today E did a 1.20 am nap, so perfect to see if capping it would help. I pushed the sling CN a bit to 4.05 A. Still only got a 25 minute nap. What is a 25 min nap anyway? Ugh. She then proceeded to be a complete grump for the rest of the evening. I PD for bed after 1.35A -  no go. So the first nap length doesn't seem to be the issue. And I have tried pushing BT a bit later but she gets so OT and needs another resettle in 45 minutes and then EW. Earlier, after a 2 hr morning nap, she could do a 45 minute CN & then do 3 hours to bed.

turns out she is a decent independent sleeper if she has the A time she needs!

The A time is so important with Eris. She follows the same A time even for a catnap or when travelling. But this rule only ever applied to naps. BT she was good to go even after a very short A. In fact, when this started, she would WU from her CN and I would immediately do BT routine and get her down. Sometimes just after 1.15 hrs. It never really mattered because of the accumulated tiredness from the day.

We flipped to one nap with all 3 kids once they could handle about 4.5 hours of A time, and you may find once you are at that point she can take a longer midday nap and have enough A before bed to still get a good night's sleep.

I think we should be there in another month. FX. My biggest issue is that she needs a short A before bed, so I am wondering how this will work. I have a feeling we will have to push BT back for a while until she can manage.

So WDYT? I don't think it is SA as we went through that at 6 months & it was hell.