Bedtime battles with a 2.5yr old

[Clairehv]

Hi,
I am looking for some advice on how to tackle our bedtime problems.
Whilst I have previously posted on here re NWs etc, up until about 2.5 weeks ago we had a little girl who went to bed quite easily.
The routine up to then was bathtime, clean teeth, into PJs. Then story and milk sitting on our knee before putting her into her bed and saying night night. She used to settle herself relatively quickly maybe chatting or singing a little but was generally asleep by 7,7.15pm.
Bedtimes were going well so we switched to a duvet as she was taking herself out of the sleeping bag occasionally in the night. That went fine, and she seems to love having a duvet and pillow.

For about 4 weeks ago between my husband and I we have been away a lot and I think we have done some accidental parenting.
I was away with work for 4 nights, and although she didn't seem too upset whilst I was away she would mess about with DH a bit more and ask for more milk, he on a couple of nights gave her some more milk and she would then settle and go to sleep.
He was then away for a week, but bedtimes were fine with me.
Then 2.5 weeks ago as he was back she wouldn't let him do anything and would be very clingy to me. The monday and tuesday evenings he did bathtime but she wanted me to put her to bed, and we had lots of standing up and crying at end of cot so I held her (probably too much) until she settled and then lay down.
The wednesday evening I went out at 6.30pm to a gym class, when I came back at 8.30 pm she was hysterically crying. He had tried comforting, an extra bottle pf milk, walk in walk out, the works. I went in and she calmed and finally got her to sleep about 9pm.
Then for the rest of that week I did bedtimes which went ok.
Then last week I was away for work again.
Tuesday night was dreadful for him, finally got her asleep by lying with her on our bed until she went to sleep at 9.30pm and he transferred her. Wednesday/Thursday were 1 hour battles but things better by Fri-Sun with her settling within 20 mins of first lay down, but only after additional bottles of milk.
I was back on Monday evening.
I have had three nights of 1 hour + bedtimes, with her crying saying she doesn't want to lie in cot, wants to lie on Mummy's bed, I held out for 30 mins of just holding her but she just cried it over and over again. gave in and had a quick cuddle in our bed then lay her down and told her it was bedtime and that was it. Well hysterical again and then didn't want me wanted Daddy, who finally got her settled.

We know that we have made errors, I also struggle with the guilt of having to work away (but I can't change that).
We have tried reducing her daytime nap,- she would happily have 2 hours at the childminders but we have cut it down to between 1 1/4- 1/1/2 hours, yesterday that resulted in a meltdown and refusal of bath as she said she was too tired?!!

DH has been googling 2.5 year old bedtime battles and the advice he is getting from babycentre is effectively the controlled crying. Having never really used that, I am reluctant, however the comforting approach just seems to extend the messing around.

To put into context where we were 3 weeks ago I said, 'Ok her bedtimes are so goo now that at the end of march we are going to knock the milk on the head at bedtime and just go through the 2-3 nonsense of her wanting it' well I feel like we have totally regressed.

So I know we both need to adopt the same consistent strategy, which I assume involves, not taking her out of the bedroom, and no extra bottles of milk when she asks. She does have persistence though and can cry for 2 hours + but perhaps we just have to live with that.

 I just want some straightforward sensible steps to try, I hate her being so upset when she used to enjoy story and cuddle before bedtime
Please help
Thank you xx

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Hi! First of all just so you know we don't support CC/CIO here on BW, but we can for sure help out finding a gentler way to get back to her routine

My first thoughts are that the nap perhaps does need to be cut back, she is at a half birthday so developmental leaps/growth spurts could be at play...what about teeth? Does she have all her teeth? Also I would shift her bedtime milk earlier as besides the issue of her asking for more milk to stall, from a dental point of view you want teeth brushing to happen after the milk.

As for bedtime itself, since she used to be an independent sleeper usually wi/wo is the way to go but sometimes if a child leans more towards a spirited temperment gradual withdrawal might better. Have a look at this link Walk In/Walk Out vs. The Gradual Withdrawal Method (HOW TO CHOOSE)

What does her day look like otherwise? Ie wake up/nap timing/bedtime?

[Clairehv]

Hi
Her typical day (4 days a week at childminders) is
WU around 7am
Nap 12.45-2.15pm ( settles straightway and usually has to be woken up)
Typically we start bathtime around 6.20pm aiming to be in PJs for 6.45pm
Story and settled by 7pm (ish) prior to this phase.

I do think we have some serious separation anxiety going on due to all our work trips.
Have just had a 1 hour nap refusal until I sat next to her cot and held her hand. She was so exhausted she fell asleep within 5 mins of me doing this but it took an hour to get to that point.
She cries saying don't want to lie down! Don't want to go in cot. Want you mummy, don't go mummy!!

Sometimes she has mapped up to 2 hours so am going to ask childminder to cap at 1.15-1.30h. She definitely cannot cope with no nap. We cannot get through the day without one.

So should we try and get into a good bedtime settle phase before stopping the bottle or just try and switch that now as well??
Should I offer the handholding at bedtime to keep her lying down for a few nights and try and reduce the 1 hour plus of messing about.

She still has 1 molar to get and we think it may be bothering her but we have been giving meds at bathtime
Thank you.

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

If you think the hand holding will be easy to back off of and wean I would be tempted to try it as a temporary measure...ie you start to hold it less and less and then move youself out of the room slowly...though sometimes during SA times I find DD3 just needs me in the room to fall asleep for a few nights and then she is back to her normal routine.

Personally I would switch the milk now and not wait, we are slowly moving ours back, it is kind of between supper and bathtime and hopefully soon will be offered with supper. At that point I will offer water at bedtime, most likely in a spill proof cup she can keep in her bed.

While she may not be ready to go nap free I would definitely keep an eye on the nap length and the bt sillies...she may need a longer A time to bed at some point in addition to cutting back the nap. Is she more of a higher sleep needs child? I am always stuck on the low sleep needs perspective so I forget what is "normal"

[Clairehv]

Hi
She has always been on the higher than average sleep side actually however I agree with capping the nap now as well.
Yesterday we had a horrendous nap refusal (so unusual- used to lie down and walk out however I haven't actually put her down for a nap for over 2 weeks)
Anyway after an hour of standing up and me lying her back down I offered her my hand. She lay down and fell asleep in 2 mins. She had a 50 min nap as I woke her up at 2.30pm.

We had an OT meltdown at bathtime but after getting her into PJs we had an ok story time and bottle.
I suggested if she lay down under her duvet I would hold her hand.
I did after a few minutes she asked me to 'go out door'. Stayed laying down but then 5 mins later standing asking for me to hold hand.
Then wouldn't go under her duvet. Wanted fleece blanket off out bed. ( DH in desperation one evening when I was away had got her to sleep in it by 9.30pm!!)
She lay down and I held her hand. After about 5 mins she said night night mummy go out door. (I wasn't talking to her at all)
I left room and she did go to sleep. So was asleep by 7.15pm. This felt like a huge victory especially to have Saturday evening for ourselves.
Although she is a queen of procrastination and just asks for different things   
Bad night though - possibly starting with a cold or her last molar.
Up and down from 1.45am- 3.15am. Holding her hand, her seeming to go to sleep and me leaving but 20 mins later standing up crying again until finally asleep at 3.15. Then up again at 4.50am. Wanted my hand. She was back asleep in a couple of mins.
Today we were out so she had a 1 1/4 hr nap in car on way home waking at 2pm.
( on a side note she used to love going up to bath and now as well as these bedtime troubles she really refuses bath and we have basically been putting her in for a quick face and bum wash whilst she protests and I insist on toothbrushing even if she is crying) I assume this is all linked with the bedtime resistance.

Tonight. Started bathtime routine at 6.15pm. Crying running away from me etc but got her calmed down and in. Was displaying lots of tired signs.
Pj's and story/bottle all gone ok.
Put her into cot at 6.50pm and we are now 35 mins into messing around.
Lay down under duvet ok first time. I stayed sitting on chair but she was talking to me then sitting / standing up. I said I would go out until she lay down then I would come back in.
Crying saying want you mummy.
Went in she lay down then the chat and fussing starts again. Then wouldn't go under duvet. I am just calmly saying mummy go out until you lie down. I just stand outside door.
She is now just standing saying 'want you mummy' not crying but just repeating it over and over.
Is this ok for me to say I only stay sitting in her room if she lies down to go to sleep.
She has also thrown pillow out and refuses to go under duvet. Wants fleece blanket.
Going to ask her to lie down again.
She sounds tired.
I will
Stay in room if she is lying down.
Really at a total loss???

[Clairehv]

Following on from below
Went in after she was standing up repeatedly saying want mummy.
She lay down under fleece blanket I sat in chair and she was asleep after 3-4 mins so asleep by 7.40pm
So I couldn't get her under her duvet I gave in on that to avoid hysterics.

Last night picked her up after she was asleep and put her under her duvet.

So is the standing outside and saying mummy can hear you. I will come in when you lie down to go to sleep ok?
I don't want to stay in the room for her to mess about?
More details in below message obviously
Thanks x

[Clairehv]

Hi
Well I am a zombie today.
Think the hand holding has majorly backfired. Cannot believe I only did it for first time on Saturday
Last night she woke up at 2.30am. I essentially had to sit and hold her hand until 4am. Everytime I thought she had settled and I extracted myself she was up again.
Asleep at 4am so I went back to bed. 4.45 am really crying again saying 'mummy want your hand' she finally settled about 6am.

Not sure the handhold at bedtime is the right strategy.

Help please 😢

[Clairehv]

Hi
DD came out with chicken pox today.
May explain the dreadful night last night. 

Would still like some advice re bedtime however as they can be poorly for a week or so before hand maybe this accounts for some of the clingyness.
Thanks 

[weaver]

Hi Claire, good luck with the pox!  It can be easy enough once it has actually come out, so hopefully that will be the way for you!

I think given the SA issues, I would stick with being in the room with her. Personally, I would find hand holding a tricky one, as it isn't really something you can gradually do less off, iyswim.  Hmm. You might need to think about that.  My LO2 is pretty spirited and has recently had a dose of BT madness.  We did have to sit in the room with her to reassure and have been able to get to the point where we put down and walk out, slowly, but we got there. She didn't want any physical contact but I did have to start off sitting by the cot and then moved slowly away.  I found WI/WO didn't work with her as she just got more worked up, not sure if that's a factor with your LO.

Do keep in mind that she's under the weather so whatever might happen this week, don't think it's "typical" behaviour.  Get well soon!

PS chickenpox tips - oat milk baths (put oats into a hankie and soak in the bathwater) and piriton or other antihistamine can help with itching.

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

I wonder does chicken pox affect a lo before the spots come out? Perhaps the previous week is in part due the fact that she was coming down with it. I agree with Anne that whatever happens this week is not indicative and wait a bit before tweaking anything as she may go back to her routine once she is well. (((Hugs))) and vibes for it to pass quickly!

[Clairehv]

Hi
Yes they have the virus for around two weeks before the spots come out so some behaviour may be due to that however I think the bigger factor is separation anxiety and our accidental parenting causing inconsistency.
Bedtime last night was great actually but I think she was completely exhausted and the piriton probably helped.
Lay her down and walked out.
She was up at midnight and 5am wanting my hand. I did sit and hold her hand but managed to extract myself before she was fully asleep but I do think she is docile due to being poorly.


I will see how tonight goes.
I do think just trying to stay in room rather than handholding is better and yes wi/wo has always got her more worked up.
I will see if she accepts me sitting further away from cot.
Thanks

[weaver]

I will see if she accepts me sitting further away from cot.

Took a few days of sitting beside the cot to get further away, iyswim.

Hope she's doing ok, poor little one!

[Clairehv]

Hi
So I will write off the previous 7 nights a horrendous due to the pox. I was getting about 3 hours sleep.
Tuesday she seemed much better in herself, went to the childminders fine, napped for her no problem
She,refused bath but actually bedtime was the best for weeks, just sat next to her and held her hand and she was asleep in 5 mins by 7pm and slept for 11 hours
Last night same again, refused to go in bathroom, absolute hysteri but calmed as soon as I offered pjs and again easy bedtime albeit I sat by her cot again.

Tonight she only had a 50 min nap today so we started bathtime at 6pm.  Went upstairs ok and into bathroom, helped turn tap on etc, and was happy until I started to tAke her clothes off. Then was just saying don't want bath and crying. I stood her in and washed face and bum as she was grubby but lifted her out.
Had a calm PJs and then storytime and went into cot ok, then not sure but she started getting upset and saying she didn't want to be in cot. I offered a last cuddle..
To cut a long story short 2 hour of her lying in my arms and then my trying to put her in the cot, she finally fell asleep and stayed lying down.

So think we are a long way from our bedtime battles being over.

She used to.love bathtime so not sure if she is juSt trying to push her boundaries or is still OT from the pox

Think I need to get to beginning of next week to mAke sure she is fully well and then become firmer around bath & bed but not quite sure how to implement that.

[weaver]

Does sound OT to me, fingers crossed she'll be better soon.

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

All three of my kids have hit a bath time resistance around this age - DD3 has hit it a bit early unfotunately. I either did a quick rinse off or if time allowed I bath with them at a different time of day to get them back at being interested in the tub (and find some new tub toys - even just measuring cups from my cupboard!).