7 Month old newbie to BW - help needed

[Badgerino]

Somewhat hilariously (I am trying to see the funny side at least) I decided I would go in at 9.30 to try address his 10.30/11 wake up...

So tonight he fell asleep at just before 7 and then not a single stir all evening (he usually needs a resettle around 8.30) until.... 9.15! Hubby was on duty whilst I was getting ready for bed and it took 15 minutes for him to get him to settle.

Oh dear! I am entirely at sea as to what to about wake ups now. We are in unchartered territory! I think I will see what time the next wake up happens and then see if we fall back to 2am and 4am. If we make it until 2 I will feed him then, and then set an alarm for 3.30 to try to address the 4am waking. I think...

Just going to have to wing it!!

I am so proud of the sleep so far though. He was still a bit wired this evening, no idea why, we didnt do anything differently that I can think of. The only thing that is new is that one of his top teeth has just started poking through this afternoon, but he doesn't seem in pain. So instead of being able to put him down drowsy he was a little more awake, he had a bit of a fidget and a play about for around 25 minutes before settling down. I had left my hand in the cot near the bars and he rolled onto his side so he could touch my hand and eventually drifted off. So proud!
It is also brilliantly that he didn't stir until 9.15.

[newkidontheblock]

I have known it for a while but every night made some excuse as I hate the thought of waking him too much by accident and having yet another wake up to deal with.

Just recently I created a prop issue with my previously independent sleeper. We weaned her off the swaddle and although she was settling independently for the most part, there were days when she couldn't. None of our old methods were working and instead of working on new methods, DH & I got into the habit of holding her to sleep. Our excuse - at least she isn't crying - it doesn't take long and she is getting the sleep she needs  -- it's easier than long winded soothing etc etc etc. Soon it took longer and longer to put her down and finally she stopped settling independently at bed altogether! In the month of March, she fell asleep on her own THREE TIMES only:S:S:S And I kept avoiding tackling the issue because I didn't want to make her cry. Finally it took just 2 days of me & DH plucking up our courage, sticking to our guns and using the Gradual Withdrawal method to soothe her in the crib. We have NEVER been able to soothe her in her crib previously. I was terrified the entire time as I had never let her cry that hard for that long - 1.5 hrs & 45 minutes! I feel so free and so proud now though. I can pat her bottom or rub her back and she will sleep:) So don't be scared, hun. Just go for it!

Even though I know he wouldn't do it i am still upset that he thinks it is a good idea.

As you said, hun, we grab at anything when we are desperate and both of you are so tired right now. I'm ashamed to say that DH & I also tried this right in the beginning before we stumbled on to BW. We only lasted 10 minutes but it was horrible. The books make it sound so simple & so easy but it is hard and simply not worth it. Especially when there are so many gentler & easier ways. That is what I love about Baby whisperer. We learn a caring, loving way to teach our child sleep - and this is something that will be needed for the rest of his life.

So tonight he fell asleep at just before 7 and then not a single stir all evening (he usually needs a resettle around 8.30) until.... 9.15!

OT, hun.

I'm glad you are looking at the bright side. I really think a good sense of humour is needed to make it through the first year. You and DH definitely have a lot to be proud of with all you'll have accomplished so far

[Badgerino]

Thank you.

Well last night was our first attempt. As he usually wakes at 10.30, 2.30 & 4.30 I decided to only try to tackle the 10.30 one and see what happens. I have the (probably naive) hope that if we stop the 10.30 one then it will have a knock on effect on the rest of the night!

So I went in at 9.30, stroked the back of his hand, he gave a little sigh and a tiny movement of his arm. I sat there for about 5 minutes to make sure he didn't stir any further and then crept out of the room like a ninja!

At 10.30... he woke!

I know you have to try wake to sleep for 3 nights, but does last night count as night 1 if he still woke? Or will it be for 3 nights from when we have our first successful night of him not waking at 10.30?

Whilst the W2S didnt work so well we did actually have a better night. It is all relative I guess!

He went to sleep at 6.50, he didnt stir all evening (usually have to go in and resettle him at least once before 10.30).

He then woke at 10.30, I tried to get him to go back to sleep without a feed but he just got more and more upset, so had a feed and straight back to sleep at 11 (put down asleep). He then woke at 2.30, I tried to get him to go back to sleep again, but again he got very upset so after 15 minutes I gave up and fed him and he went back to sleep at 3.15 (this time down awake as he didnt fall asleep feeding). He then slept until 5.30 at which point he decided it was time to get up for the day. Luckily hubby gets up at 6 so took him so they could have some quality time whilst I slept til 6.30.

I also tried W2S with his morning nap yesterday as I have noticed that the last week they have been getting shorter. He used to do an hour and a half twice a day, but his morning one has been getting shorter (around 45 mins). It worked really well for the morning nap, we got an hour and a half, so I will be doing that again this morning.

I just don't know if the night time one from last night counts or not.

Do I need to get him to stir more than just a sigh and a tiny hand movement? Or is still waking on his usual cue par for the course?

[Lycheewaves]

Just weighing in on the wake to sleep which we used really successfully to lengthen our DS's naps as well as eradicate habitual night wakings, anecdotally for us it took a lot longer than 3 days, for us it was several weeks but we had quite a lot of wakings to remove! And we found that they'd come earlier and earlier until the first one (I think it was 1am) eventually met his Night feed at 11pm so we then worked on his 4am etc so take heart! It might seem to take awhile but it is a successful and quite unintrusive sleep training method.

The way we woke was to give a pretty decent shove, so he stirred or even fluttered his eyes open a bit. But you'll get to see what works with your DS, I found when we first started and it was too gentle it didn't seem to be resetting his sleep cycle.

Best of luck it sounds like you're really making progress and doing so well!

[newkidontheblock]

So I went in at 9.30, stroked the back of his hand, he gave a little sigh and a tiny movement of his arm. I sat there for about 5 minutes to make sure he didn't stir any further and then crept out of the room like a ninja!
At 10.30... he woke!

Hun, I'm so sorry but I burst out laughing reading this. Horrible of me but I could just imagine it! You won't believe the number of times I have been so pleased to have settled DD easily only to find her up & crying by the time I reach the monitor. They out-ninja us every time!

I don't have any BTDT advice with W2S honestly. But I have done something close to it to help lengthen DD's afternoon nap. So she would keep waking up after 38 minutes. I tried W2S - I was ready & waiting when she stirred, I patted her back to sleep & kept it up for 10 minutes and I *thought* I was successful but she would inevitably wake up again 10 minutes later. So I committed to a week of staying in her room for the entire nap. That is, I would be waiting - if she slept through, great -- if she stirred and started crying, I would immediately pat her back to sleep and keep my hand on her for the rest of the time. Then after we were consistently getting long naps this way, I held back and she made it through.

[Badgerino]

I don't blame you. It is funny! it doesn't help our house is really old and the floor boards creak. I have figured out which ones don't so I end up feeling like I am channelling Catherine zeta Jones from that scene in entrapment  (without the leather catsuit! ). I'm possibly not quite as graceful. ... possibly. ...

The things we do to! Its a good job I still have my sense of humour.

Well the last two nights have gone as Follows:

Friday night asleep at 6.30, Stirred 7.30 & 8.45 needing to be resettled.
Wake to sleep at 10 (still being very gentle and getting a movement or two and breathing change).
Woke at 11.30 feed & asleep within half an hour
woke at 3.30 feed & asleep within half an hour
up for the day at 5.30 (not fun! )

Saturday night asleep by 7, Stirred a little at 9.
Wake to sleep at 10.
Woke at 10.50 had feed but very unsettled and took ages to go back to sleep
woke at 2.30 same as before very unsettled up for about an hour and a half before he fell asleep in his cot.
Awake at 6 but got him back to sleep until 7.30 (whoop whoop!)

So another mixed bag but given a top front tooth is partway through since Thursday I am really pleased.

Still a way to go but determined to persevere.

Thanks again for all the support and advice

[newkidontheblock]

Have you seen this? Maybe some ideas:p https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9ANB-ccfb0

The first day you posted, those NWs soon after bed as well as the 5.30 WU sound like he was OT. How were naps on that day? The next day is much better.

Have you been able to space out the day feeds, honey? Because I feel that he might just *need* those 2 night feeds. He is waking at different times for them but he is determined to have his 2 feeds. Spacing day feeds would definitely increase his intake during the day, so he wouldn't try and make up the calories at night. Did DH try the bottle? You could try a dream feed at 10ish, before he normally wakes to eliminate hunger as a cause. If he still wakes and needs help, then you know it is habitual. And if he doesn't, you know he was waking because he was hungry

[Badgerino]

Loved that video! Thank you. 

Friday naps were 8 45 - 10 & 2.15 - 3.45
Saturday naps were 9.15 - 10.25 & 2.15 - 3.15 but then got him back to sleep 3.45 - 4.30

I think getting that later nap section yesterday made a lot of difference.

Feeds during the day are now on first waking, then before naps and bed and that is it. His solid intake has really increased  (blw). He ate an enormous amount of roast dinner yesterday.

We haven't tried the expressed bottle. I think you are right that needs to be our next step. not sure if we will be able to try it until next weekend now. Will need to check with hubby. i will persevere with wake to sleep in the meantime though.

[Badgerino]

One thing that is probably worth mentioning is that it is often difficult to get him to focus and take a big feed before BT.

This eve was particularly bad. He is typically more interested in chewing his snuggie dog or sleeping bag or just generally dangling off my lap upside down.

Any thoughts?

our evenings look like this:

4.50 dinner
5.30 bath *lots & lots of splashing so Def doesn't count add wins down!
5.45 dry off & massage in dimly lit bedroom with star projector on (no toys allowed but he'll usually grab a muslin or his jammies to chew)
5.50 start having a feed where we talk about our day and have a story and feed on both sides.
6.10 turn white noise on, last offer for BF, burp, pick up, pat on back & say "eddie go night night" and pop him down.
I then sit next to the cot very still with my eyes closed with him hand in the cot (he usually rolls to touch me) and after around 20 mins of flapping, chewing snuggie dog and kicking around will drift off.

Tonight i brought everything forward 15 mins as he was tired. I should have done it earlier in hindsight as he was really hyper I had to hold his arms still for a minute as he couldn't seem to calm himself. I let go before he fell asleep as i don't want to introduce a prop but I haven't had to hold him like that in a while.

[newkidontheblock]

it is often difficult to get him to focus and take a big feed before BT.

What's the gap between this feed and the one before? have you tried feeding in a dim,quiet room? I've had to do that since 4 months to get DD to feed properly. I had a problem with BT feeds too and that was fixed by making sure there was a good 3 hour gap from the previous feed. She would not be hungry enough to nurse well and it was a very frustrating situation.

Do you feel the projector might be winding him up? No BTDT experience here. Our sound machine has a projector too but it is way too exciting for her. What happens if you PD and leave? With my DD, I generally just hum while nursing her as she is so easily distracted. After I have burped her, I walk a bit talking about our day. I have been trying to introduce story time but a book is too exciting so I have been reciting poetry - not very interested though. Basically I keep it very quick after the nurse - burp, talk softly, into sleep sack, sleepy song, in bed after a kiss.

Your routine seems lovely. Maybe you can try putting down and leaving or gradually moving your chair away?

[Badgerino]

Well! Last night was a bit of an experiment!

First to answer your questions though.

He usually has a feed at 1.30/2ish before his nap and then nothing until his bedtime feed at 6ish, so I would have expected him to be hungry. Whilst he is eating more at dinner (around 5pm) he probably eats less at dinner than he does at lunch and still manages to find room for a full BF after lunch.

I only feed him in his room with the curtains pulled now for exactly that reason. Trying to feed him anywhere else is chaos as he tries to rubberneck around.

I dont think the projector is too stimulating, he tends to ignore it in favour of trying to grab something to chew at the moment!

So back to last night!

He was a bit off his milk yesterday (he was a bit constipated so I assume that was the reason), so I ended up pumping around 5oz. I decided to try bottle feeding him during the night rather than add it to the freezer stock of ebm.

He didn't take much milk before his afternoon nap, but had a half decent feed just before bedtime (but still not as much/as long as he used to).

So I put him down at about 6.20 and tried moving my chair a bit further away from the cot to do things gradually, he had a good old flail around and then a lot of straining noises.... so a nappy change later he is still pretty wired and rapidly getting overtired from flailing around.

I picked him back up and got him to take a little more milk and hoped that doing the burp, pat, put down "Eddie go night night" would help break the hyper cycle. It did help slightly, but he was still very active. I ended up moving my chair back next to the cot and put my hand on his chest to try stop things getting any worse. In the end he drifted off at 7.20!! The latest since we have moved bath forward to 5.30.

I was certain I was in for an evening of him waking every hour.

He actually slept until 9.30 when I sent hubby in to settle him as I find if I go in that close to his usual 10.30 window he decides it is milk time and all hell breaks loose until I feed him. So hubby got him to settle and I decided to risk getting my head down for what I thought would be an hour.

He slept until midnight! Yeah!!

At midnight I offered him the bottle of expressed milk. He was not impressed! He faffed around for a bit but when it became clear I wasnt going to BF (I was also wearing one of hubby's t-shirts over my own pajamas to try throw him off the scent!) he took a tiny amount, then wasnt interested. I put him back down and he grumbled and whinged for a bit but then drifted off. 5 minutes later he woke up and wouldnt be soothed. So I got him up, offered the bottle, he took a tiny bit, lost interest, so back down he goes. After 5 minutes of sleep he wakes again (you can see where this is going!). This time he took about 1oz, maybe a little more, but when I put him back down he went to sleep, this was 1.30am!

Until 4.30!! Yeah!!

We repeated the above at 4.30 but only had to put him down and get him back up once and he took just over 2oz. He really didnt want to settle though, but finally drifted off at 5.10.

Unfortunately he then woke up at 5.50 wide awake.

I then cheated a bit (I admit I did this yesterday as he was very upset with his tummy from 5.30am on Monday morning) but I laid down with him on the mattress on the floor and we went back to sleep together until 7. He didnt want any of the milk this time, until we got up at 7 and he took a nice big BF then. Doing this two days on the bounce is bound to bite me in the bum tomorrow when he wants to do the same, but one battle at a time! At least tomorrow we don't have anything planned so I can try to address it.

But the bottle was a big success! It proved to me that he isnt hungry in the night, and the wake up times also proved that it isnt habit causing him to wake (although 4.30 is a recurring time so possibly). I am putting my money on it being comfort. He just wants some sleepy feedy snuggles.

I am going to try it again tonight. Thank you for suggesting it! I think hubby is pleased as he thinks he has dodged a bullet as we had spoken about him trying him with a bottle this coming weekend when he doesnt have to get up for work. Let's hope we have some progress by then.

[newkidontheblock]

My gosh! This was quite a read. You and DH are real champs for persevering, especially in the MOTN.

Whilst he is eating more at dinner (around 5pm) he probably eats less at dinner than he does at lunch and still manages to find room for a full BF after lunch.

Maybe reduce evening solids a bit? You want him taking more milk. It is possible that the food is digesting slower here because not much movement and also he is sleepy so feeding less.

Glad you were able to figure out about the hunger & habitual waking. Rooting for you!

[Badgerino]

Well hello!

It has been a few days, and so far I feel like we are making progress.

We had a bad few nights towards the end of last week and I realised that enough was enough with the prop of having to keep holding his arms. It was like we were going backwards again.

So Friday night I did the usual bed time routine, said "Eddie go night night", gave him a kiss and popped him down.  I then sat next to the cot with my eyes closed and just reassured him verbally. No touching. No looking, nothing. An hour and a half of him being very upset later and he was asleep. It was AWFUL.

He woke twice in the night, the first time we were up for best part of two hours, as I wouldn't hold his arms. The next waking was about an hour.

Saturday night he went to sleep after an hour of being upset. Hubby did his first ever night shift with the monitor! He woke twice and was back to sleep within 15 minutes! In all honesty I felt pretty awful about this as I became convinced it was me that is causing the problems as he went back to sleep so easily when hubby went in.

Sunday night we had about an hour of being upset, I was back on night duty. Two wakings, 15 minutes each in total, including offering the bottle, not being interested and back to sleep! That made me feel so much better to know these night time shenanigans aren't my doing. Hubby was also pleased as he was worried night shift would become his from now on!

Tonight I put him in his cot awake at 6.30, he was asleep by 6.45 with no crying or being upset! I even moved the stool a bit further away from the cot! I am so proud! I hope for a similar number and duration of waking as last night.

Am I being naive in hoping that with removing the night time BF and now getting him going to sleep on his own, with time the wakings will stop? They have been at different times each night so far, but I am still keeping track to look out for any patterns that might show habit.

I am just so chuffed at how quickly he went down tonight plus the last two night's wake up durations. He actually had 11 hours sleep last night!!! Incredible! I feel like I could manage on only two wake ups if they carry on being like this. Hopefully this isnt the kiss of death for tonight!

Sorry for another essay, just super proud. 

[newkidontheblock]

Keep the essays coming. Lovely to read about your progress. You and DH really need a pat on the back! Amazing!

Am I being naive in hoping that with removing the night time BF and now getting him going to sleep on his own, with time the wakings will stop?

Only time will tell. The hope is that if he realises that there's no food in the night, he will up his intake in the day. Have you spaced out those feeds? Also, if he learns to sleep on his own, then he won't need to nurse to sleep. So one way or the other, this can only help matters. Of course, if he isn't taking enough milk during the day, he will still wake to nurse at night to get in the calories.

Xx