Where to start?

[Anika920]

15w old DS. I had him on a 2.5-3h easy when he was just a few weeks old and he stopped gaining, so I threw out the routine. Now that he's older I have been still trying to follow sleep cues, but feed on demand. His sleep has never been good, but it's atrocious now. Naps anywhere from 10m-3h I am just trying to let him get sleep where he can because I swear he HATES it. He has never really slept well. Nights start with about 2.75h and dwindle to 1.25h/45/30m it's absolutely exhausting and I can't handle it anymore. It seemed on demand doesn't work and the schedule got him some sleep until all of a sudden I had an unhappy baby. He is still swaddled for naps and at night. He cries as soon as he is swaddled or as soon as I sit to help him get drowsy. I have been able to get him to drift off in his bed before but it's so hard. Often times he cries as soon as I lay him down and shh/pat doesn't seem to work, so I pick him up and calm him and try again. He jumps a lot and even after self settling will wake up crying after only a few mins. I try to keep my hand on him, but it's very hit or miss. Please help.
He also went through a period we thought reflux was bothering him, but the meds did not seem to help and he's a pretty happy frequent spitter.
He seems to want to wake around 7a. We've been trying to do bedtime routine starting around 7p.

[newkidontheblock]

Honey, could you help me out with your routine in EASY format, please?
Have you seen this?
Starting EASY - all you need to know and more!

[Anika920]

I haven't been documenting since I e been mostly following cues, but here's basically what today looked like. As I mentioned it's a very modified EASY. I'm concerned about milk transfer and him not gaining so I feed him more frequently. My mom and I had a misunderstanding and typically he doesn't get a bottle but I will feed him sometimes about an hour after he has eaten if he seems fussy, had excessive spit up or is doing hunger cues.

E 715
S 830/915 (start of S versus when he actually slept)

E 1040
E 1220 (bottle)
S 1240/1 (extended nap)

E 230
E 420
S 440

E 515
Bath 7 (planned for this evening. Bath is typically around 7)
E 730
S 8

I don't dream feed but he tends to wake about every 2-3 hours at night the first 2 night wakes and then it gets less and less lengthy.

Hope that helps and thanks for your response.

[newkidontheblock]

I'm sorry, hun but I can't make out your routine. If you don't mind, I suggest you just start all over. Keep a sleep log of your day and note down the EASY routine you are aiming for and stick to it consistently. It is fine if you are modifying it to fit in feeds. TBH, I never followed the E portion of it. I would feed DD as soon as I felt she wanted it apart from on WU from naps and night sleep. The main thing though is to stick to a consistent A time, keep one eye on his cues and the other on the clock and separate eating & sleeping. Keep A times very low key as they get over tired & over stimulated so easily. You mention him crying as soon as you swaddle him -- could it be that he is already over tired at that point? That would also explain why he is so 'jumpy'. They tend to jolt a lot more when OT. It helps to keep the room cool & dark and also have white noise on.

At this age, you would need to aim for 3 naps of 1.5 -2 hours + a 30-45 minute CN before bed. It is best to aim for a 12 hour day and have a fixed BT & WU time in the morning to set their body clocks. So if morning WU is 7, aim for 7 as BT. If he wakes at 7, he should be asleep for nap 1 by 8.30, so you can start winding down 20 minutes earlier but only PD 5-10 minutes before as if he is too UT, he will fight it and quickly get OT. Do you follow the 4S wind down routine? It really works great to calm them down & get them drowsy. As soon as I would see DD's eyes closing, I would gently lay her down and leave the room, giving her space to settle herself. I would go back in only if the cries escalated. It will take time, hun but if you are consistent, he will get the idea. We also went through a phase where DD would cry a lot as soon as we went into her room, so we would wind down in her room with a small light on and do finger rhymes and read books.

WRT feeds, cluster feeding in the evening worked great for us. I would feed before CN and then split the BT feed around bath. You should try a dream feed too. It worked great for us:)

[Anika920]

He is so inconsistent it is hard for me to have consistency with him. During the night he starts to wake up every 1.5 hours and I am up with him for another 30-40m resettling. I am absolutely drained and exhausted after 15 weeks of this. So today for his first nap he may have been over tired he woke up a little after 6 and I nursed him because it was going on almost 5 hours since he had eaten (due to frequent inconsistent night wakings) I've tried to extend feeds in the night since usually if he is waking it can be only about 2 hours since he last ate, and he won't actually be nursing. However, he got a little fussy around 845a right before I was planning on starting WD. I sang to him and he swaddled well but as soon as o started 4S he started fighting me. I use WN to help settle him and it does stay on while he sleeps, but I use a loud WN to settle as it seems to really work well and it does not stay that loud when he sleeps.
 I also got in a bad habit of cosleeping since I was tired and thinking he is waking frequently now because of it since after 2-3 NW I was just being him into bed because I am falling asleep nursing him.

So you are saying to have night time and bedtime at the same times not BT routine? So I need to have him trying to go down by 7 not by 8 if 7 is first wake up time? If that's the case I'd like going for 8 or 9 and I'll let this early morning wakings be part of NW still.
 
His first nap he woke 30m into it and took about 10m to resettle. He is sleeping again now. Is that where I confused you with my S times being 2? I typically try and extend his naps as he seems to wake early from most of them. Every now and then it's like we get it right and he will get a good 2 hour or so nap.

So as to my original question of how/where to start should I just start slowly 10m or so be lengthening and shortening where I can/need to get him on the schedule I want?
I don't dream feed because when I was it never seemed to go well for us, but I may try it again since I am starting fresh.
What do you mean by keeping sleep and eat times separate? By at least 15m? Thanks for all your help.

[Anika920]

I re-read and think I misunderstood the first time. You are saying to not do E if he wakes early from naps and NW? As far as A times he seems to be going through a transition where he's not showing sleepy cues as early as he was so I'm shooting for about a 3-3.5 EASY.

[newkidontheblock]

He is so inconsistent it is hard for me to have consistency with him.

Well, he is a baby, hun:p Whatever approach you choose - be consistent whether it is co-sleeping or APOPing to sleep or in sleep training. It is unfair to change the game on them and babies do thrive with routines and predictability. With EASY, the simple rule is to separate feeds & sleep with small activities like changing his diaper, looking out of the window, go for a short walk and so on. Try to keep any overly stimulating activities at the beginning of the A time.

I know how tiring these NWs can be. My DD's birth weight was very low and I had to feed her every 2 hours around the clock. It was exhausting. But as she started gaining, she started going longer stretches at night. One thing that I am sure helped us was bottle feeding with expressed milk at night feeds. I would get up and pump while DH would give her the bottle.

I also got in a bad habit of cosleeping since I was tired and thinking he is waking frequently now because of it since after 2-3 NW I was just being him into bed because I am falling asleep nursing him.

You did what you needed to do for both of you to get some rest. Don't worry about it. Plenty of mums co-sleep for this exact same reason.

So you are saying to have night time and bedtime at the same times not BT routine?

I don't understand what you mean here, hun.

So I need to have him trying to go down by 7 not by 8 if 7 is first wake up time? If that's the case I'd like going for 8 or 9 and I'll let this early morning wakings be part of NW still.

Well, if wishes were horses, right:p Once he is caught up on sleep, you can try moving towards an 8-8 routine or 9-9 - whatever you wish. I don't know how well that would work though as I think 7ish - 7ish is their natural cycle. The best bedtime is between 7 & 8 pm because babies and children in general are naturally early risers. But for now, if he is waking at 7 everyday, sticking to a bedtime of 7 or 7.30 would be best. You should start waking him up at a fixed time everyday and putting him to sleep at a fixed time.

So as to my original question of how/where to start should I just start slowly 10m or so be lengthening and shortening where I can/need to get him on the schedule I want?

In the link about starting EASY, there are age-wise sample routines. Maybe you could go through them and pick a routine that you feel will work for you? The routine at this age is pretty basic. You will have to keep working on extending naps as he is still learning to transition.

What do you mean by keeping sleep and eat times separate? By at least 15m? Thanks for all your help

I mean, try to avoid him falling asleep while nursing or nursing too close to a nap. Typically you can nurse on wake -up and then move on to A time and then PD for a nap.

Hope that helps:)

ETA: Regarding the E, what I meant was, even when not spacing the feeds according to what Tracy suggests, you could have consistent times to feed him. So with my DD, I would feed when she woke in the morning, on wake up from naps & finally I would split the bedtime feed around bath.

Regarding the A time, I would suggest you stick to a 3 hour EASY for now. It is fine to go by the clock instead of waiting for his cues. I found with my DD that if I waited till the first yawn, I was already too late. Once you get this routine working, we can reassess if more A is needed. I wouldn't think so though:)

[Anika920]

I may be missing some of his cues or like you said when he shows his first yawn he's already OT. DH is better at distinguishing far off stare than I am. So I think I will be going by the clock a bit more. DH is gone from 7-7 most days that's why I was hoping for 8.

What I was trying to ask regarding wind down VS BT. is that wind down should not start at 7 if WU was 7, but rather WD and BT routine should be complete and S should be at 7p not later like I had been doing. So day starts E 7a and ends S 7p where I was doing BT Routine at 7 when DH gets home so he could see him and aiming for S 7:30/8

[newkidontheblock]

Yes, exactly. You aim for him to be in his bed and asleep by 7. Wind down is a very short thing, hun. So after I nurse DD, it is into sleepsack/ swaddle, sing song & lay her down in her crib. Just takes a minute.

For naps, we walk around the house for 10-15 minutes singing/humming and then go into her room 5 minutes in advance of the time we want her asleep. Into sleep sack - bye to the house- put on music box - kiss and into bed.

Simple & sweet:)

[Anika920]

So my LO has a hard time with self soothing. I'm sure it's due to AP. but if I just lay him down before I want him asleep he's awake and starts crying. I've done shh pat in bed  and it work sometimes but yesterday we missed the whole CN and oftentimes it takes him many minutes to settle in his bed.

What am I doing wrong in the 4S area? I use that for my WD for naps and if he's not upset when I swaddle as soon as I sit he's fighting me. He really resists naps and even at night during early morning night wakes he's wanting to hang out and play. He will be awake sometimes for an hour + in the middle of the night. It's part of the reason I'm so exhausted.
What I've started doing is walking him up to the room sing twinkle twinkle (before swaddle to get him accustomed to a cue) and then I sit (sometimes we rock or I pat especially if he is worked up and fighting) unfortunately often times when we stop rocking he starts wiggling around again.

I've decided what may work best for the first few days is to just get him on a 3 hour routine working on getting him napping and waking at particular times then getting rid of AP slowly. I know it's going to be difficult. But hopefully if I can get him good sleep then he won't be OT and the AP will be smoother transitions.

[newkidontheblock]

Could you try standing instead of sitting? My DD would cry & fuss the moment I sat down but calm right down if I stood up. Worth a try, right?

[Anika920]

He still fusses if we stand. My poor LO. I think he falls into the grumpy baby category, but he's the happiest little grumpy baby around. He smiles when he first wakes and then gets grumpy. He's like mom, hates to sleep and then hates to wake up. 

I have another question for you about the naps you said 1.5-2h is it recommended to let them sleep longer or should WU time be consistent? I let him sleep longer yesterday and then noticed BT was skewed and later by almost an hour.
Thanks for all your help!

[newkidontheblock]

Tracy said not to let a nap go longer than 2.5 hours otherwise it might lead to an issue with the next nap, with BT or with too much day sleep over all. If your last nap of the day is too long, BT will definitely get pushed. That's why a quick catnap is recommended in the evening

[Anika920]

What I am trying to figure out is if we are trying for WU and BT to be 12h. how does a 2 or even a 2.5 hour nap filter in?

for example would it be cutting into the A time at the end or pushing the E time later. I use E to signify WU times from naps or NT.
So would it look more like

E 7
S 8
E 10

OR

E 7
S 830
E 1030

The second option is how we got pushed back. Yesterday we let DS sleep for about Nap 1: 1.75h and Nap 2: 2h. We were looking for a later BT. One we let him wake on his own the other we woke him up at the 2hr nap. We started with First WU at 6:30 and BT at 8. We only missed the CN due to shh/pat routine. I hadn't realized I had been trying to get him down that long until DH came in and said it was Bath time.

[newkidontheblock]

E will get pushed around a bit, which reminds me, I used to wake DD up so that feeds were not too far apart. It won't be cutting into A time as A includes feed time- it is eyes open to eyes closed. You'll have to help me out with that's day routine before I can comment on it:)