NW, routine issues 9,5 months old

[Mariellamom]

Hi, 
A month ago DD started STTN first time in her life!!! Thanks to wonderful ladies here that helped me with that!!!
But 4 days ago she started waking every night at 1-2 am and stays up for an hour or two trying to sleep,  but wakes up every 5 min. She started standing holding on to things two weeks ago and is trying to do that In the night as well,  but only these last 4 days. We removed the room divider that eete around her crib with a blanket on top to block the light ( had to do it as she was sleeping in the living room). She has been fine in her new own room for a few weeks,  but once we moved the dividers this all mess started.
I don't know if it is just a coincidence,  or teething,  or developmental.   But I was thinking maybe her routine needs to be changed as well. Her STTN didn't seem to be related to the daily routine as it stayed the same all this month.
Here is our day
8 am WU
BF
solids an hour or more later
11:30 S ( 3h30 A)
12:40 A ( 1h 10-20 S)
BF
Solids
BF
16:10 S (3:30A)
16:50 A (40-50 min nap)
Solids
Bath
19:30- 20:00 BT
3-4 am BF

Last four days she is up at 1-2am for an hour or two not crying,  just waking up every 5 min, and cries if we leave, and after a 3-4 am feed for an hour.
I am confused to when to do the pm nap and how long. Should I shorten her A time before bed if her second nap was 40 min? 
Is this nap after 4 pm too late? How can I fit it into her day? 
if I start 2/1 transition,  what A time should I aim for? 
she is an LSN child I think,  sometimes goes 4 hrs A time but the same nap length.
 Today I tried to shorten her am  nap,  so that the pm nap will be earlier , but she has been screaming for an hour, 16:20, no nap (((.

Thank you for help!!!

[Kellyjs]

Oh sweetie, that does sound a little developmental but also the start of the 2-1 I'm afraid. Around now, especially if there's NW's like that, could be an indicator for a need to increase the A time.

From what you've said, if you mess about with the morning nap, the afternoon nap doesn't work out does it? That's ok, many, including myself did longer am and shorter pm nap. Especially as you're not getting EW. I take it she wakes naturally from that second nap after the same A time as in the morning? Many lo's start to show signs that different A times are needed throughout the day so it's a case of trial and error to see what works best.

You've got room in your day to lengthen it a little. It's very normal to have 13hr days whilst in the transition.

To answer your question, no I think that A time to BT is perfectly fine after a short nap. You don't seem to be getting OT early NW's, so that looks good.

I think if she can comfortably do 4hrs A time in the morning, perhaps you could start there? It might help lengthen the day out a little. Then keep the 3.5hrs for a CN, then the 2.5-75 to BT. That's exactly what I did with my DD when we started the transition.

For example I would try this:

Wu 8
Nap 1 12-1.20
Nap 2 4.50- 5.30
BT 8-8.15

There will be more tweaking needed as she progresses further down the transition, but this will definitely be a great place to start x

From 2 to 1 nap transition (10-12m and older)

[Mariellamom]

Thank you!
oh my.....We've had screaming all over the place for AM nap and PM nap. Ended up having 5 hours A time in the morning...But she slept for 1,5 hr which is good, praise God! I think the PM nap was a bit too early, so EBT is needed.
(in the future if AM nap is longer, do you think I should try cutting it? I think I read to cut after 2 hrs but sometimes, like today 1,5 was too much to fit in the PM nap...)
I read through the links about 2/1 transition. It is said there about 13 hours of sleep during the day.
 I assume it is about 11-12 hours  night sleep and 1-2 hours naps? I cannot understand what sleep length is normal now if I aim for 4 hours of A time.
What the food plan should be if I do EBT? Should I try to fit 3 solids still or just go with BF before BT?
What about NW, should I extend to feed her at 4-5? I am so afraid of going back to 2-3 NF we had a month ago..... (When she was STTN she would eat at 4-5 once, then 4 BF during the day and 3 solids.)
Should I be worried about APOP for the 2nd nap? (if it ever works of course ) Also almost most times now when she is falling asleep I have to hold her to prevent from standing, or put her back to lay down a loooot of times. Can it create a prop...? If we leave then screaming starts....

From what you've said, if you mess about with the morning nap, the afternoon nap doesn't work out does it? That's ok, many, including myself did longer am and shorter pm nap. Especially as you're not getting EW. I take it she wakes naturally from that second nap after the same A time as in the morning? Many lo's start to show signs that different A times are needed throughout the day so it's a case of trial and error to see what works best.

Yes, she wakes naturally. Several times she slept longer, I had to wake her otherwise BT would be at 9 pm...

Thanks for your help!

[Kellyjs]

Unfortunately some apop may be needed throughout the transition but if you can limit it to the second nap if needs be, it should be fine and won't be forever.

The amount of sleep is just a guide, tbh it's a case of trying and seeing what works best for yours. I too limited the first nap to 1.5hrs so I could fit in a CN so the length of day didn't get too long.

I'll try and remember what we did around this time wrt feeds... I think she was still on 3 bottles at this time.

We did:
Wu 6.30
Bottle 6.40
Breakfast 7.30
Bottle 10/10.15
Nap 10.30 - 12
Lunch 12
Snack 3
Nap 3.30-4.15
Dinner 4.30 (this was brought earlier as she wasn't taking BT milk, still have it early ish now!)
Bath, bottle and in bed by 6.45, asleep by 7/7.10

Does that help?

[Mariellamom]

ok, I see.
Thank you!
will try to keep 4 BF since solids might be missed in the evening . Now we have it all: refusal to nap, no second nap, refusal to BT ( it took us 3 hrs yesterday to fall asleep for BT ( plus a missed pm nap) , OT wakings before 12, wakings after 12, NF at 2am, EW
I can't believe it. We just got our first more or less good weeks with naps, and STTN. Nothing of that is left except for one good morning nap

[Kellyjs]

Oh bless you, they do like to mess things up when we think we've got it right don't they?

Yep, I'd keep to 4bf. DD was bottles fed so that's a little different.

Oh dear on all the OT NW's. Do you think she might have been OT by the time you tried for BT and she missed the window? Anything else going on like teething?

I promise it will get better, the 2-1 can be an icky time for some, but it soon passes. I remember thinking it went on for months and months but in actual fact I think once I got the A times right she did keep the 2 naps for a while as learned behaviour, but once the first nap got shorter and she refused the pm more often than not, I just jumped the A time, went CT to one nap, dealt with the OT and tweaked the routine until the nap was in the right place x

[Mariellamom]

I think this is another WW, a very intense one
She just doesnt sleep long enough. Her nights now 10-11 hrs long. (Do I need to change her day somehow so that she  can catch up on lost sleep?)
I keep her A time in the morning 4 hrs, then 3,5, then 2,5-2,75, like you said, it seems helping. Yesterday she did not have OT wakings before midnight, but woke up at 2 am ready to eat, then at 5:30 up for the day. DH stretched her for 1,5 hrs before I fed her (don't want to make it as a second night feed).
Every time she goes to bed, she is rolling in her crib 30 min-1 hr before falling asleep and only if I prevent her from 'climbing' to stand up If I dont do anything she can stand for 30 min just looking around. AND she acts really tired. I tried to feed her to sleep yesterday, she was almost out and relaxed. Once in a crib, she started rolling still very sleepy, then just rolling and rolling and climbing and rubbing her eyes obviously trying her hardest to fall asleep.....
About EBT I was thinking how to avoid 'missing the window'? Lets say she refused the CN in the evening, means I have to do EBT, but in how many minutes? Is it like in 30 min to make her more tired or in an hour? Anyways if she missed CN, she is already OT...

once I got the A times right she did keep the 2 naps for a while as learned behaviour, but once the first nap got shorter and she refused the pm more often than not, I just jumped the A time, went CT to one nap, dealt with the OT and tweaked the routine until the nap was in the right place x

I am sorry what is CT?
So, as I understand right, when her either nap is shorter I will need to increase the Atime and do EBT if there is no time for CN?
I hope EW are not the reason that her morning nap os too soon....4 hrs A time is already a lot for her and looks like just enough.
Thank you so much for help! Ohh, not easy days and nights yet again

[Mariellamom]

Oh, more questions. Are her sleep cues clear now,  or like at 6 months,  if she acts tired, she might be just bored ? I remember at 6 months sleeping sings are not reliable. What about 9-12 months? 
Today she her two naps hardly reached 30 min both. What is reasonable A time before bed then?
Thank you!

[Kellyjs]

Developmental stuff can really play havoc with sleep. Great news the OT NW's have stopped though, at least we know that's a good A to BT for her. How long have we kept these A times now? Ideally we wanted to hold them for a week and see if things settled down, but if she's playing around each time she goes to sleep it may be that we need to increase the A time slightly before the naps.

Sorry hun CT is cold turkey. And no I really wouldn't go by sleep cues anymore, they're really unreliable. Could be because they need a change of scenery or hungry/thirsty etc.

How did last night go after those two short naps? X

[Mariellamom]

Ah yes, cold Turkey Thank you!
Actually after such a messed up day and an hour falling asleep at BT we had a quiet night until 4 am! Go figure )
I was thinking about increasing A time,  but the first one seems to be already a lot. ..? 4 hrs? Unless I should increase the second one to 4 as well? It looks like she really is trying to sleep but this WW is messing her ability to do that. ... Who knows. when I am fed up with taking her hands off the crib rails for an hour, I just bend over and hold her body with two hands so that she can't even thinking of getting up for the 100 th time  )
These A times we've been trying  for 4 days only. Do you think I should try 4,15 or 4,30 first A time? Or let it be like this a couple of days?   
Ah yes, so basically all three A times are longer because it takes her so long to fall asleep.

[Kellyjs]

I would concentrate on the first A. You can try and add on 15mims, hold for another 2-3 days then we can reassess. I wouldn't try and push out the second one as it'll make your day longer and that's not the ideal as you only want a CN out of her. Once she's up to around 5ish hrs first thing you could look at dropping that second nap anyway. I really don't think you're too far off, maybe another month or two at most.

I can definitely understand how all this pulling up is getting frustrating. Hopefully if we get the first A right then that won't be so much of a battle as she'll be too tired to contemplate it hopefully  . Try and give her lots and lots of practise during the day if you can. Does she know how to get back down again on her own? X

[Mariellamom]

Thanks for a quick reply!
Well, today nap 1 was only 55 min even though she went to sleep fast and was really tired. So I guess surely we need to increase that A time.
If it will  be 4:15, then the second A is 3:30 still,  right? 
She refused to have nap 2 at all. Tried for 1,5 hr.
Regarding pulling up,  yes,  she does go back down on her own,  no problem. when she wants She is crawling all day and is trying to stand holding on to everything possible. It is just so funny, she would stand and watch me while I am pretending I am sleeping ) ( I thought it will give her a hint ))
 Maybe I should try the last 30 min of A time to let her play in a crib? maybe that will make her tired ...
I think and hope in a week this ' pulling up game' will be boring for her and she will  be falling asleep faster

[Kellyjs]

Hmm yes, it could be another increase is on the cards, especially if she's refusing the CN. I just used to leave DD playing up there for around 30mins (if she wasn't upset) as in my mind at least I tried to offer her a nap and the down time must help some. EBT on these days is key. Don't be afraid of a BT as early as 5.30pm on those days where the first nap is short. Someone once said to me that if you want them to have say 2hrs of DT sleep and they have only an hour, putting them to bed an hour earlier gives them chance to catch it up.

Just throwing out another option, although it never worked well for us, it does for some... That being you could try a shorter am nap and longer pm nap. The idea is that you cap the first nap to say 30mims and try and get a longer nap for the second one. The A time does need playing around with though, I never got it right and ended up,with 2 short naps  . I might be thinking that your DD is like mine and can do a full A on a shorter nap it seems. Wdyt?

I personally wouldn't do A time in the cot unless there's issues with her being afraid of the cot or suchlike. For me, bed is for sleeping in and it may just keep her playing in it iykwim? I don't know when you'd be able to say 'ok, that's it now, time for sleep'? Or maybe she could play when she wakes up in there? That might be an option.

Oh and to answer your question.. Yes, 4hrs 15mins first A, 3hrs 30second x

[Mariellamom]

Hi,  happy Mother's Day to you!!!
Wow,  our days are a mess. three days in a row one nap. Once it was even 2hrs nap after 5 hrs A time. Yesterday she refused her nap 2 after 3:30 A time until 4:30 A time. the night after that was quiet until 1am. Then she was up until 3 am. Just wouldn't go back to sleep.
 As I understand OT awakenings happen the first two hrs after BT, right?
I gave her medicine and she fell asleep after an hour I think or less. Might be teething.
She  falls asleep normally most of the times if I put her down very exhausted  after 5-6 hrs A time. it all became so frustrating. If I put her earlier I spend two hours on pm nap that never happens,  then 1-2 hrs on trying to put her down for the night. ...
If your daughter missed nap2,  when did you do EBT? Right away after a feed?
Unfortunately so far most of our EBT resulted in screaming and BT 2-3 hrs later. Tonight she fell asleep 5 hrs after her last nap! 
about cutting the first nap. I was thinking, that on times when she had short nap 1, nap 2 almost never was longer. So,  probably my DD is just like yours was at this age ?
I did cut her nap once, oh boy I still remember that super OT day with no nap 2 and very late BT.
BW says that if a child goes to one nap too early,  chronic OT
creeps in.  I am wondering what are the sings of it. Looks like we had 3 good nights,  But the last one was a mess. I assume she will show OT sings early enough. But oh well,  still nothing can make her sleep  longer....
Thanks for your help!

[Kellyjs]

Oh yes, looks like she's steaming ahead with this transition isn't she? Being able to do 5hrs A time either side of the nap means she's more than capable of it now.

Does she fall asleep easily in the car? Just wondering as when we were further down the transition like you are, I timed a trip to the supermarket on the OT EW days (5-5.30am) at around 9am, so she could catch 15mims in the car and I could then make her to her usual nap time of 12.30pm.

OT can creep in, but it's very individual as to a LO handles it. Some just crash after a few days and either sleep in in the morning, or catch up with longer naps. It does rectify itself eventually.

When DD missed her second nap I used to do BT around 5.30-6. It totally depended on when she woke up in the morning and it has always taken her 30mims to wind down at BT to go off to sleep.

When we got to this stage, I think DD was around 10.5-11mo though, I resorted to set nap and BT. Except for the odd catch up car nap as mentioned above, I stuck to this come hell or high water only moving the nap 15mims earlier if needs be and BT up to 30mi s earlier if it was a rubbish nap. Wdyt? I'll post some links for you to have a read through x

Set naps for toddlers: Why, How and When
from 2 to 1 nap - how, when and the bumps