Pacifier use to calm during pick up/put down??

[Jmarie52]

Hello!

This is my first post to this forum and I apologize if there is a post out there like this one. I actually have multiple questions but will post separately. I have begun pick up put down with my 5 1/2 month old. She uses a pacifier, but generally is ok without it once asleep. However, in the beginning,when I pick her up, just me holding and reassuring her doesn't calm her. As soon as I give her the pacifier she immediately stops crying, so I put her down. She cries on the way down and while she's laying there I give her the pacifier. It takes many times of this back and forth but eventually she tires out and goes to sleep. If the paci comes out after she's asleep, she's typically ok, but until then she doesn't settle without it. My question is, am I totally messing up the process by using the pacifier and/or should I stop using it? She can't put it in herself should she need comforting in the middle of the night, so that's where I'm concerned. I appreciate anyone's thoughts and suggestions!

[dache]

Hi Marie (not sure if this is your name ). Welcome!

Do you think the paci has become a prop?

I think this is what you are looking for.  PU/PD and Paci Use. Why they don't mix.


You might find this helpful too.

Pick Up/Put Down (PU/PD) - Everything you ever needed to know!

Hope that helps.

[Jmarie52]

Thanks for the reply. I have been asking myself that same question... Is it a prob. She calms down with it, but when she turns her head and it comes out or she spits it out, she doesn't usually wake up and just giving it back to her doesn't put her back to sleep. She doesn't really even need it to go to sleep. But when she's upset, it seems to be the only thing that calms her. Such as with PU/PD. Whatever causes her to wake and then beginning the process, she is REALLY upset. Just holding her she never settles. So that's when I resort to the paci. She has been a tummy sleeper since 6 weeks so I put her down on her belly and do have to hold it in as she sucks snd cries sucks and cries. Pick her up, immediately settles with it, but when back down, immediately starts crying and repeat until she tires out and sucks but isn't crying. Then I leave her. Probably not the correct way. Should I just take it away altogether for this process? If so, any other suggestions for calming her bc just holding doesn't do the trick. Otherwise just continue holding her, putting her down, and repeat while she cries?

[becj86]

PUPD - the pure technique cannot be done with dummy. I'd say you're better off if you want to keep the dummy doing shush/pat or some variation thereof rather than picking up. I wouldn't say its a prop if she's not waking for it.

Sounds like you're looking to address NWs - a few troubleshooting questions:
I see she's 5.5 months old - I presume all was normal with pregnancy and birth and she's not got any medical conditions?
What's her routine?
When is she waking at night?
How is she behaving when she wakes?

[Jmarie52]

I'm definitely not feeling very confident about all this... meaning, executing it properly. At this point it is a combination of night wakings when she hasn't attended day care (see below) and trying to get out of the habit of being held to nap and when put in crib for naps, only lasting 15 minutes or so.

All was fine with pregnancy, she is a little small for her age - was born 7.12 but lost 13% of that and really has been slow to gain, but has been doing so proportionately as the months have gone on. Now she is about 14 lbs. No medical conditions.

Here's some back story: as a younger baby she cried ALL THE TIME! Colic? Who knows... just for no reason that could ever be determined. I attempted creating a routine at the time and it was just so difficult because she was so hard to settle. I literally bounced on an exercise ball ALL DAY LONG! Finally, that came to an end when I went back to work and she started day care. She was on a regular eating and napping routine, but would only nap if I held her. So, when she went to day care, of course they couldn't do that all day long. During the day there, the eating routine went out the window. They pretty much created their own and have been feeding her every 1.5 hours... basically when she cries. And she takes it all. But on the weekends I do not feed her that often and she is fine. She barely sleeps there... 30-40 minute catnaps approximately 3 times per day. So, when she cries out of what I assume is tiredness, they feed her. I am breastfeeding and obviously cannot keep up with that demand, so they alternate formula and BM. I was very irritated about this, but seeing as I'm unfortunately not with her all day long, I felt I needed to let them do what was working for them to survive the day.

Point about above: she sleeps great during the week!! Probably out of pure exhaustion. She does wake up... typically about an hour after bed time, then not again until 3:00 am or so. I feed her at her second waking. The day starts for us at 6:00/6:30 am. On the weekend, she gets regular naps (held) and sleeps horribly at night... and has begun to roll over (tummy sleeper, rolls to back and cannot roll back to tummy yet) so that doesn't help! While off work for Christmas break I decided I was not going to let this continue. I re-read Tracey's book and realized that part of the issue could be that we were still on a 3 hour feeding/nap routine at home. Day care obviously not. She was already going 4 hours here and there on the weekends so I just started that cold turkey yesterday and followed Tracey's plan for starting a routine with a 4+ month old. The routine is going well... it's the PU/PD down part that I am really not so sure about! But, she did sleep better last night than any other night without having gone to day care.

Yesterday's execution of routine and PU/PD:
6:30 am - wake and feed
8:20 am - began sleep routine (which we have always had in place, including at night)
8:40 am - in her crib (with pacifier)
9:05 am - woke up - did PU/PD (with pacifier use)
9:55 am - finally asleep in crib
10:30 am - woke her up, feeding *happy
12:20 pm - began sleep routine
12:40 pm - asleep in crib (with paci)
1:15 pm - awake - PU/PD until 1:45 pm
2:15 pm - awake *happy
2:30 pm - feeding
4:15 pm - routine for cat nap
4:45 pm - awake - did PU/PD until 5:15 pm
5:30 pm - woke her up *grouchy
6:15 pm - began bedtime routine
7:30 pm - in her crib asleep
10:45 pm - attemped dream feed with no luck
12:45 am - awake - fed and back to bed
6:00 am today - woke up

The pacifier is what calms her during this process. I take it away from her before putting her in crib at first and then once she is finally calmed down and seems asleep during the PU/PD process. But, when she wakes, for whatever reason, I do have to use it again to help calm her again. Should I just be letting her cry, while trying shh pat, until she finally gives it up? I have a pretty good feeling that will be a LONG time!

THAT GOT SO LONG!! Sorry!!

[Jmarie52]

Today has been basically the same.

[becj86]

Ok, that's what I thought might be happening. I'd say given she's sleeping pretty reasonably on those 3 short naps, you could probably jump to an A time of 2:45 (upper end of average at 5.5 months) with the expectation of that increasing to 3hr at around 6 months of age. That's just a guess, we can tweak from there if necessary. IMO, its not fair to do PUPD when the routine isn't right for LO - ie A time too short, so they're not tired - its incongruous to teach baby to go to sleep when they're not tired. IME, the need for sleep training almost always/almost completely goes away when routine it right unless there's an underlying issue.

What I'd suggest is something like this:
6:30 - wake
9:15 - nap
*be ready at 30min and 45min to resettle, be there in her room and put your hand on her or give back the dummy or whatever if she wakes - easier to resettle before she's screaming and you're looking to teach her to get through that sleep cycle changeover (seems she's probably not done that for a nap for a long time if ever)
10:45 - likely WU (shift routine later if she sleeps longer)
1:30 - nap *
3 - likely WU
4:30 - nap (trying for a little undertired here so she's not grouchy when you wake at 45min)
5:15 - wake (you wake her if she doesn't wake, best to be there from around 35/40min mark and wake her as she rouses as that is the most natural time in the sleep cycle to wake)
7:30 - asleep in bed for the night

Daycare people have to be taken firmly in hand if you want to do your routine there. I would suggest getting it right at home first so you can tell them with some confidence that it works.

[Jmarie52]

Last night she woke at 10:00 pm. She was asleep in her crib by 7:15/7:30. But was fed at 6:40. I wasn't sure what to do.. Try to get her back to sleep or feed her, but I opted to feed her and see how the rest of the night went. She woke again at 2:30. Feeling guilty like maybe the four hours routine wasn't filling her up, I again fed her. Ate decent but took a long time to get her back in crib. I honestly just held her and I know I screwed up the process. Awake at 4. Should have been diligent snd gotten up but sent my husband in. He never got her in crib and held her until 6:30 am! So, here we are. Lol.

In the future, how would you handle the above? Especially the 10 pm wake up? I was going to attempt the Dream feed at 10:45.

I will try extending her awake time even though by 2 hours she's pretty wiped and not much fun!

It looks like she will be eating less frequently, specifically in the morning, by extending her awake time as it changes her nap times? Am I reading that wrong?

[dache]

Hugs for the ruough night hun. I think you are being hard on yourself.

In the future, how would you handle the above? Especially the 10 pm wake up? I was going to attempt the Dream feed at 10:45.

If she wakes at 10, I`d feed her than. I don't see the point in trying to put her asleep for 20 minutes (or however long it takes) and then do the DF 20 minutes later.
At that age I feed her anytime she woke up, given enough time has passed. Later, I dropped one by one. One was 10-11, other 2ish and 5:30-6 which I moved to morning feed.

It looks like she will be eating less frequently, specifically in the morning, by extending her awake time as it changes her nap times? Am I reading that wrong?

Yes, as you increase A time, nap time changes and feed time too. Everything is a bit later. It`s constantly moving forward.
You can move nap time slower if you think she is too tired with 15 minutes increase. Too tired can be the reason why she is waking after 30 minutes.

Take your time, and dont be hard on yourself. We all, (and I really mean all), have felt like we messed things up, we are doing this wrong...Be gentle. You`ll get to where you want,it just takes a little bit longer then we imagen it would.

[Jmarie52]

For the past two days she has been nursing every four hours during the day. She is not on solid food. I'm TERRIFIED of my supply lowering. Granted she is one heck of a sucker and I know they become more efficient with age, but she is only nursing for 10-15 minutes at the absolute most each session (and I do both sides with each feed), even before changing to the four hour time frame. And the breast isn't drained... I can easily squeeze some out still when's she's done. It's not pouring or anything! As mentioned, she is eating TONS at day care, so I of course am concerned about her getting enough when NOT at day care. She has plenty of wet diapers and poops, but it is difficult to gauge when you can't actually SEE how much she is getting. Anyway, point being that I'm nervous about adding any additional time between feeds. I don't mind getting up at night to nurse her, but also don't want to hinder this whole process by getting into that habit (even though I already do it), if in fact is is habitual versus true hunger. If only she could tell me!!! Nine times out of ten she will take a bottle of 2+ ounces of formula right after nursing. So, either she loves to suck or is still hungry. I ever know. 

I don't want to count my chickens before they're hatched, but so far from following the directions of going in at 30/45 minutes BEFORE she is really, really awake, she has slept like a dream in her crib. This is a first! She is going on two hours and I kept her up for 2.5 hours. So let's just say that I get this all worked out and going smoothly... how in the WORLD do I tell the day care to do this? It is loud and bright there... at home it is quiet and dark. She may never sleep there even remotely like she would at home, so how do I avoid what happens regarding sleep there during the week becoming her new routine? If that makes sense... when she's home I want to continue with what I'm already working on. 

[becj86]

Yay for an awesome nap stick with that new A time for a few days and see how it settles.

WRT feeding, I would say to do some breast compressions and make sure the breast is really drained before switching sides (more fata for her and less milk retention for you). I would also say that at this age, DS was feeding for maybe 5min on one side at a time and putting on plenty of weight so it is possible (and given she's doing fine wet nappy wise, probable) that shes getting plenty. If shes happy in herself, she's getting enough, she will cry if hungry.

Daycare - Do they have a room routine? What's the setup? She may well need some wind down time before napping as she may short nap due t ok overstimulation but then again  she could be fine. When does she go back to daycare? How often does she go and for how long?

[Jmarie52]

Glad to know your baby was taking less time at that age, as well!

They do have a room routine, or so I've seen posted, that would fit pretty well with this time frame. I say that I've seen it posted bc I've never asked about it since Scarlett was never doing anything like the other babies with regard to eating and sleeping. But they do have two sides to the room separated by a small walkway. Hard to explain. But I was planning to ask them if they could move her pack n play to the opposite side where the lights could be off if she was asleep when the others weren't. She goes from 7:15/7:30 am until about 4:00/4:15 pm every week day. I'm off work until Jan 4, but was planning to take her this coming Monday and Wednesday to get some things done that I normally can't when she's with me. However, I'm thinking about putting Monday off. I will definitely ask them to spend some wind down time with her. She usually gets put in a swing if she falls asleep or is in the swing when she happens to fall asleep.

I'm curious how much she would need in a bottle with extending her feeling time. I'm only able to pump 4.5 oz at each pumping three times per day. Now I would be pumping only twice, but perhaps will get more. I can continue doing it three times or more if needed. I've heard that how much breast milk they need doesn't increase, rather the milk changes based on need.

Thank you sooooooo much for taking the time to help and providing such insightful responses!! Words cannot express my appreciation!

[becj86]

Here's a site where you can calculate the amount of milk she'll likely need: http://kellymom.com/bf/pumpingmoms/pumping/milkcalc/
You could also try a weighed feeding - once your routine is more stable at home and she's feeding that frequently, you could weight her before and after a feed to get an idea of how much she's taken and then give her that in a bottle.

Keep in mind daycare workers often feed formula to babies and just feed them every time they cry. If you're sending your liquid gold, I'd give them specific times when she is to be fed and explain that yes, its a smaller amount than formula but its higher in calories because the milk changes with your DD's needs (most don't know that).

Do they not have a dedicated darkened room for naps? That's odd at that age! Anyway, yes it would be a good idea to have her in as dark a room as possible for her naps and every daycare I've seen had loud white noise to drown out the noise of the other kids.

I would say you could probably quite easily give them that routine that's working for her and ask them to follow it. Its pretty typical of what you'd expect around this age. I don't know how flexible and helpful they'll be - you're likely going to drop that catnap and go to two long naps per day in a couple of weeks. Its definitely worth explaining a little bit about the routine and how its affected her sleep and general demeanour.

Happy to help, that's why I'm here So glad things are improving for you - how are her nights with the new routine?

[Jmarie52]

Thanks! I feel confident that what I provide them is sufficient for her, but they always say things like "she cries after we give her the breast milk," or "she is inconsolable after being here for an hour." Well, duh! She's tired! She's been up for almost over two hours by that time! Anyway, I could rant all day about it! I made the mistake of bringing formula for them so that they were never left in a lurch. They took advantage of it the first week!

The nights aren't great, but are better than they've been lately without having been to day care.. Last night she woke at 9:00 on her back - I just put her back to sleep. Then again at 11:00, also on her back - I fed her. AGAIN at 3:30 on her back. She was quite fussy so I fed her for the second time that night. She woke AGAIN at 5:40 am!!!! I broke the rules (as with many) and just held her while we went back to sleep until 6:40. This certainly is not ideal, but since she has been rolling over, she was waking every hour on the hour. I have a rolled towel under the crib sheet, but I think that has just helped her to improve rolling in a smaller space, haha! PS: she is a tummy sleeper and has been since 6 weeks, so I do put her down on her belly each time she goes to bed.

Yesterday's attempt at the cat nap wasn't successful. She wasn't having it at all!! She woke at 2:40 pm yesterday and then didn't actually get in her crib for bed until 7:15. She was in a pretty good mood, oddly enough. 

I will admit a few things: for naps, I do the wind down time and follow our regular bedtime routine minus the bath and a feeding. I hold her still and sometimes she is asleep (not deeply) in five minutes and I put her in her crib. Otherwise, I do hold her until she is really settled. Even though she isn't deeply asleep, I am usually able to put her in her crib without rousing her. At night time, I feed her last before bed. She doesn't fall completely asleep while nursing, but pretty close. I hold her upright for about ten minutes usually and then put her in her crib. Sometimes she seems really asleep and others just barely. I do this because the doctors believed she had reflux when she was younger... and I hate to lay down immediately after eating, too! When she wakes at night, she is on her back and seems wide awake. So, I do get her out, give her the paci, and hold her for a few minutes. At 9:00 pm last night I did NOT get her out, though and instead just turned her over, gave her the paci and then took it away once she was settled. Anyway, figured I ought to fess up to these things as maybe they're hindering this whole process!!!

I guess I'm getting desperate. Any thoughts on the 2-3-4 method?

[becj86]

Yeah, some kids do well on 2-3-4 routine, mine did 4-3-2 for a long time. Every child is different, this is just about having a starting point to then tweak and find what suits your LO best.

It actually.important that she goes in the crib at least a bit awake. What happens is that she needs her environment the same as when she fell asleep so she can get back to sleep. So I would be putting her down drpwsy but awake and helping her off to sleep, working towars putting her in fully awake and having her go to sleep. That way when she rouses, she knows she is where she was when she went to sleep and therefore feels secure that things aren't changing while she's asleep.