Fidgeting wake ups

[Jo1stbaby]

Hi, 
I haven't posted here for a long time. I've since had a new dd who is now 5 months.  My day consists at the min.
8am feed - 3 - 4oz
Plays, talks etc for approx an hour and a half
She starts getting tired so we give her a dummy snd hold and pat to sleep unless I'm out in the car and she'll often fall asleep. If I put her down within 10 mins she's awake, kicking around.  If I hold her she tends to sleep ok with the occasional bum pat.  She sleeps in my arms anything from 1/2hr to 1 1/2.
She is them awake again for approx half an hour or so before having a feed again. She will have a 5oz bottle at approx 12pm and will take 4/5oz.  Then it starts again some playtime, jumperoo, activity may etc.

I feed at approx 4/5pm depending on the timings of other feeds she will take upto 6oz occasionally more. Sometimes she'll have a small sleep other times not
5.45pm - run the bath, get bathtime ready. 
6pm bath for approx 15 mins, I then get her out by then she's tired and hungry.  I aim to start feeding her about 6.30pm (6oz).  She screams on the bottle to begin with (she's on ranitidine and gaviscon).  After an oz or two she then settles into drinking and then falls asleep.  I then have to fight to wake her  up to drink.  I try until she just won't wake enough to take any.  This can be anything from 3oz to 5oz.
I'll Leave her in my arms for 15/20 mins before putting her down. 
She will then sleep from then (approx 7pm) until 11/12/1/2 fidgeting all this time but not too bad.
I give her her next bottle and then I have to hold her for about an hour else she fidgets, fidgets, fidgets. I put her down and she may sleep for about an hour then fidgets.  I spend until her next feed (approx 4 hours later) patting, holding her arms etc. Then if she has a feed about 4am that's it.  If I hold her she'll sleep for a couple of hours if I try and put her down she wakes herself up and starts chatting and googling.

This is all going on whilst also looking after my 4 yr old. Who has started waking up at 6am absolutely knackered not getting enough sleep and not going back to sleep.

My husband works long hours so I deal with dd2 in the night.  If dd1 kicks off for any reason he will deal with her.

Any ideas how to get my dd2 to stop fidgeting and waking herself up? She's gone into her own room now which is worse as now I can't sleep with my arm rested on her in bed.

I know she's teething and has been for the last couple of months with no sign of teeth yet.  I give her teething powder and gel but it makes no difference.

[lily_layne]

Is her reflux under control? If not, that could be part of the problem.

Is she generally napping once per day? Based on what you've posted, I'm guessing OT could also be causing problems but I may have read things wrong.

Has she ever gone to sleep/stayed asleep without your help?

[Jo1stbaby]

I think her reflux is under as much control as it can be, that doesnt seem to affect her at the min.

She'll have two or three naps but long ones.  I can't work out if
She OT or not.  As there are times when she sleeps lots in the  day but it doesn't make a difference.

I've never put her down for her to go to sleep on her own. She just lies there awake or crying and I've tried patting.  I really wanted to get her into sleeping by herself but when I ask the hv, my first one gave me some good advice but lg was poorly so I couldn't put it into action.  Then I asked another one to go through what to do again she told me don't even try before six months.

 

[trimbler]

(((Hugs))) you sound tired

Please could you note down for us what a recent day looked like, eg

Up and E: 8am
S: 10:30-12 (holding/in pram/...)
E: 12pm
S: ...whatever it looked like on that day.

Having it all set out like that can help us get a better idea of what might be going on.

Just thinking about the reflux - when you hold her, is she in a more upright position? Is it when she's laid flat that she starts crying/fidgeting? Is her night time fidgeting accompanied by fussing/crying? The screaming on the bottle at BT does make me wonder if she's uncomfortable. Have you had the Ranitidine dose adjusted recently for her weight gain? Have you had a look at the reflux FAQs on here? Sleep and the reflux baby.

[Jo1stbaby]

Hi sorry for the late reply.

My easy routine which isn't much of an easy routine.

6.30 - 7am  wake up
8/9am - feed 4oz or so (never very hungry
9/9.30 sleep (depending on wake up - in my arms
10.30/11 wake up
Play for an hour or so
12/1 feed 5 oz
Another hour or so of play
1/2 -nap in my arms or in the car maybe 1/2 he
Play for a bit if I can get her off to sleep again
4pm - feed 6oz
Play until I run bath now at 5.15
Bath at 5.30 for 15 mins
6pm bottle normally falls asleep in my arms before finishing her bottle (6oz has about 4oz of it) keep waking her to get more in her.
6.30/7pm sleep.
10pm feed
Sleep
1.30/2 feed
Sleep
4/5 feed
Then will only sleep after that for maybe half hour before I end up having to pick her up and pat her back to sleep. She won't go down after that.

Inbetween the night feeds she can fidget and cry out several times.  Normally a dummy will suffice but sometimes holding her hand.

When she was in our room in her Moses basket she was sleeping really well. She'd go from 7pm until 1/2/3am without stirring too much maybe once. Now she can't seem to go long st night without her feed.

I've checked with doctor and they actually said she was having too much ranitidine. So they have reduced the dosage.  I don't think it's really her reflux causing too much of an issue, she has her mattress raised slightly.

I wonder if the crying st bt is purely Ot. Once she gets into the bottle she's fine but then falls asleep within minutes.
 I think the fidget/fussing is more she's wKibg herself up.  She'll fidget for a bit, quite often settles herself down again but if she doesn't settle she will let out a cry.  Sometimes just popping a funny in is enough to settle her or sometimes patting or holding her hands. 

[Jo1stbaby]

I also think she is feeding too much at night and not enough during the day but I can't get her to take more during the day.

[trimbler]

I think you're probably right about her being OT at BT, it looks from what you posted that she naps for 1.5h in the morning, and then 30mins in the afternoon, is that correct? And then has an A time of 4h+ before BT? I think we need to work on getting a bit more daytime sleep in there, to help prevent OT building up. I also wonder how she's doing with independent sleep? Are you holding her for all naps, unless they're in the car? At BT, is she basically falling asleep on the bottle and then you put her down asleep? If so, how would you feel about some sleep training? By this age, LOs start to need the same conditions they had at the start of a sleep period, whenever they wake during it - so if she's used to always falling asleep on the bottle at BT, for example, it would follow that she'd expect a bottle to resettle during the night. I realise you're managing to resettle her in other ways too, but sometimes working on independent sleep at BT can help set the tone for the rest of the night. I'd suggest working a bit more on her daytime routine first, though, since she's much more likely to learn to get herself to sleep at BT if she's not already OT.

So... Just thinking about daytime routine now, thank you for giving me an idea of how things usually go for her. Sorry to be a pain, but please could you post what happened on an actual recent day, rather than an 'average' routine? It can really help to see a day or two like that, to work out appropriate A times to start with. Have you had a look at sample routines for this age? Most would be having (or aiming for!) two long naps plus a CN at this age, although there are of course exceptions to this. Have a look here and let me know what you think might work for her, together with an example recent day of hers, and we can put our heads together - or you may find you come up with a plan yourself after reading the sample routines, in which case, great, I'll stick around as you update and bounce ideas off you as you go chronological EASY samples, 4-6 months

[Jo1stbaby]

Thank you so much for your advice so far.  Yes Please to help with sleep training, I'll try and find some tips on the pages here but any help will be great fully received.

Ok, yes I think she probably only getting a total of 2/2.5hrs sleep during the day.  Sometimes longer morning nap sometimes longer afternoon.  I'll track everything today and post tomorrow how our day went.  It's not always that long before bedtime.  I do try and get her to have a sleep later in the day but depending on how the rest of the day would go would depend on if and how long ygatcqouldvevrn happen.
  I have started doing an earlier bedtime by half an hour which has helped a little, there is less leg flinging around.  So I do definately thing it's ot.  Independent sleep is none existent at the min. So yes I am holding her for naps, occasionally after about an hour sometimes I can settle her on the sofa that can go from an 5 min sleep up to max of an hour.  That's hit and miss. So her bed sleep is in the car or pram.  It makes sense what you say, she did really well with sleep st night to begin with until recently and now it's getting worse do her associating where she fell asleep to where she wakes up is obviously confusing her now.

I do try for 2 hr to 2hr 15 mins awake time but sometimes it just doesn't work (I must work harder on that)

Thank you for your help so far I'm dudfibg from lack of sleep now so this needs to be sorted.

She is 5 1/2 months now and her sister is 4, it's a little tricky with her sister on holidays at the min but I need to do this for my own sanity.

I've just done the know your baby test and I would say she is a textbook baby (minus a couple of bits) with a little angel baby in her too.  She is s very contented baby who even smiles when she's grumpy. It's just the sleep has gone haywire ATM.

[lily_layne]

I agree that sleep training will likely help. Trimbler may not be around for a few days so I'm here to help!

[Jo1stbaby]

Hi,
Ok this is what yesterday looked like.  Slightly different to normal as trying to try a bit of sleep training.

6.30 - wake up
7.30 - breakfast porridge & 4oz bottle
A - this consisted of a little time in the jumperoo & time on the floor
8.30 - attempted sleep took half an hour. Wasn't really too sure what I was doing. I put her down in cot, sat with her.  Tried rapping her bum slightly but was wiggling around so much and taking her dummy out, that I resorted to gently holding her arms and tapping her dummy.  She dlrpt for 30 mins.
10.00 - put down again 30 mins to get to sleep slept for 25 mins.
11.30 - 4oz bottle
Activity time
1.10 - 3.20 sleep in the car and shopping.
3.30 - 5oz bottle
4.30 - carrot and potato mash and apple and banana mash
5.30 - 5.45 bath
6.00 - bottle 5oz
7.15 sleep - took her up at 5.45 when she finished her bottle, put her down dozy (bling eyes wide awake) 30 mins of trying to tap bum, dummy hold hands.
11pm 6oz feed
2.30 am screaming for milk took 1/2oz
4.00 - 5oz bottle
6.45 wake up

Now from 7.15 until 11pm I went up to her room 3 times to resettle as she started fidgeting then crying. By hats not too bad as previous night I went up about 6 times and then she screamed at 9.40 for a feed.
From midnight until 6.45 she woke a lot approx between every 15 mins to 30 mins.just for resettling.

One thing I have thought about this evening is about moving her up a teat size. I've just used it on her last bottle, no screaming and squirming.  Could have given her more I think.  I've just settled her down (20 mins) put down dozy.  I'm reaching out there but hoping if it was the test bothering her that's why she isn't drinking much in the days for sometimes feeding every 3 hrs.  If this works I'm again hoping everything may fall into place.

I would still like help sleep training though and obviously this is just my first attempt with this theory.  Fingers crossed though. 

Good news for me is hubby is going into work later tomorrow so he's going to do the night to try and give me a full 7 hrs (what the hell is that?)

[trimbler]

Hey there, back again now Sorry, re-reading, you'd already said that she wasn't sleeping independently when I asked you again Ok, great that you're reading to tackle this and that DH is supporting you - hope you enjoy your 7h tonight

So, she does seem likely to be quite OT to me, and this may well increase as she has to learn a new way to get herself to sleep, but once she's sleeping better she should be able to settle into a routine and start to get less OT I'm sure you're already aware that it'll be hard work, with setbacks along the way, but well worth it. Also if you can give her as many opportunities as possible to learn, she should learn more quickly - but i appreciate that with dd1 at home you may sometimes just have to get out and let her nap in the car. And at least then if she takes a good nap there, that will help stop some of the build up of OT, so it's not all bad

So, to clarify - what have you been trying so far? From what you posted, it sounds like you've been using a variation of shh pat (by all means play around to find what's most soothing for her) to get her to fall asleep in her cot, rather than in your arms? All I can say is that if on day 1, she's been able to do that within 30mins, you can count that a big success Are you patting her (etc) all the way to sleep, or just until she's starting to settle herself? Don't worry if it's all the way to sleep to begin with, it's a big step from going to sleep in your arms to going to sleep in the cot. But as she gets used to this, you can start reducing the amount and duration of the help you're giving her - the end goal at this stage would be to be able to put her down at the end of her wind down routine and have her settle herself to sleep without any further intervention from you. That might seem a way off, but you may be surprised at the progress she makes Other things that can help are having a dark room (mine needed pitch black as very distracted by visual stuff!), white noise (can muffle other sounds as well as soothe) and a consistent wind down routine.

Thinking about your daily routine - I'm looking back at the first EASY you posted for clues, would you say that her first A time when she was napping in your arms was 2.5h and she slept for 1.5h? Or was it more like 2h? Whatever it was, that might be a good place to start when you're trying for a nap in the cot, but perhaps bring it a little earlier, say, 15mins perhaps, as it'll take a little longer for her to actually fall asleep. When she takes a short nap, if you're able to try and resettle, that would also really help her - easier said than done, I realise. With another LO around, it's obviously a juggling act. I personally used to creep out of the room as soon as I could (for us, I actually had to stay in for the first 20mins or so until she'd reached deep sleep, otherwise the floorboards creaking would wake her but you may be able to 'escape' sooner), and then wait until she woke, give her a few moments to ascertain whether she was crying an 'I need you' cry and then return to the room and do all the same settling stuff that I did at the beginning of the nap, keeping her in the cot if possible. Sometimes that worked, but I'd set a time limit (depending on how DS was doing etc) and if she hadn't settled by then, I'd give up and take her out of the room and feed if she was ready. Tracy would suggest a period of 45mins to settle at the beginning of the nap - if no sleep reached by then, take them out of the room for 5mins or so for quiet cuddles and then back in to try again. For resettling a short nap, try up to 45mins before giving up, or sooner if dd1 needs you. (DS got through a few DVDs during this phase for us ) Just be aware that if she short-naps (anything less than 1.5h is generally not considered restorative, although the third nap is commonly a CN at this age), you'll need to reduce the next A time a little to avoid OT. Oh, and try to log everything if possible, that way we can see how things are progressing and perhaps make some better guesses as to appropriate A times.

About the teat size - no experience here but by all means follow your mummy instincts

I'm hoping that getting some more daytime sleep in there and sleep training will help with those nights, but can't help wondering if there may be some discomfort going on too? I see she's started solids, can I ask how much she's having and for how long has she had them? As I'm sure you're aware, it's not generally recommended before 6mo and then just very small amounts, building up slowly - I do appreciate that all LOs are different and you may have been advised to start solids early, but they can cause problems for tiny tummies to begin with, until their digestive systems mature, so do watch for clues as to whether her solids might be causing any discomfort, especially if for example a new food has recently been introduced.

Sorry I feel I'm rambling, please feel free to ask any questions but for now, a couple of links:

Starting E.A.S.Y. at Four Months or Older (Note - Tracy talks about PUPD here, but if shh pat is working then we'd advise you to stick with that and only go to PUPD as a last resort. Also, I'm not going to suggest that you take two days out now for observation, since you've already started the sleep training process, so I wouldn't want to confuse her, but nonetheless, you can be asking yourself those questions as she suggested, you've already sketched out your DD's routine for us)

Shush-pat - How to

[Jo1stbaby]

Hi Trimbler,

Well let's start with last night.  The teat worked a dream, didn't think about it before as we've tried changing teats before and couldn't get it right because of the reflux and originally colic (colic was sorted early on by a cranial osteopath).  So she drank a full 6oz bottle (she probably would have taken more but didn't complain.  I gave her a few mins for it to settle and took her up to bed.  Tried putting her down but she just got hysterical.  So I know this is probably wrong but I cuddled her until dozey (just closing her eyes) and then I laid her down, her eyes popped open so I continued to pat (her bum this time) and she went off.  She was a little fidgety to begin with (I always ready dd1 a bedtime story but last night I was still in with dd2 so hubby read her her story), but wasn't too long and I left.  She started the night we'll only went up twice and that was closer to 10pm.  I did a dream feed at 10 (quickest feed at that time yet due to tears again I think she could have taken more), then popped her straight down, stayed a couple of mins.  So this is where it all went wrong for hubby.  I heard her crying at about 2am for a while.  He said she took 6iz but kept crying for more and he did another bottle and she took 4oz.  He also said when she saw him she thought it was okay time grabbing his nose etc. So great for me maybe not great for dd2 as hot her a little out of routine.  Rest of the night we'll from about 12am hubby said he was up and down about 20 times (although he has been known to exaggerate as most men do. Lol), although knowing dd2 this could be true.  He came to bed at 5am I got up twice between then and 6am, she then slept until 7.20.

So today.
Wake up 7.20
E - 6oz bottle (she only took 4oz but prob because of her last feed being 9oz) and porridge
A - bum I chair playing with toys, a little jumperoo time, quiet time on the floor with just one toy.
S - 9.45 (sudfenly remembered this morning dd1 had dancing, fibe she'll sleep in car and at dancing). Nope she slept from 9.45 until 10.15.  Disaster
Came home little a time
E - 12pm 6oz bottle finished bottle.
A - took hubby to work
S - 1.00 for an hour ( a little later than needed but unfortunately how it went today)
A - bumbo chair watching me and dd1 bake, time in front room on floor etc
Attempted S - tubing her eyes so took her up no luck tried for 30 mins came down, sorted tea
E - bottle 5oz
S -  again no luck after 30 mins.  Came down finished tea sat down and ate tea
E - sweet potato & apple & pear
S - tried again not a chance only tried for 20 mins wasn't happening
Bath time (this consists of gentle playing on changing mat whilst waiting for bath to run, bath time 15 mins, dried dressed and out in front bag.  I now do her bottle in her room (have a prep machine) before going downstairs and chilling with to in quietly for dd1.
E - 7oz bottle (upt it to 8 but only took 7) couple mins settling
S - took  her up at 6.45 ( a little later tonight), quick snuggle until closing eyes popped her straight into bed (eyes opened looked for a few seconds then closed) whilst patting her bum. Asleep by 7pm

Ok now to answer your questions.
I had about 6 hrs told hubby if he could do it for another 3 nights or so and I'll be fully recharged lol (he wasn't keen) but it was great 6 hrs straight bliss.
Hubby is a chef so lost at time like a single parent as he works long hours and dd1 on Easter holidays so no preschool next week either.
Yes a little shh pat without the shh (doesn't seem to do anything for her if anything probably heightens the crying.  I'm patting until sleep slowing down as she's relaxing then I stop one hand on her for a couple mins then I sit there for a another 5 mins or so before slowly retreating out the room.
  I've ordered a blackout blind arriving next week.
Daytime 1st sleep time I try and aim for 2hrs/2.15 awake time before napping she slept in my arms for anything between 1 hr to 2 hrs.  I'll try taking her up about 15 mins earlier now as you say.
Solid wise she only has equvalent to 1tbs of porridge and probably about the same at tea time.  Not too much only been trying her for the last week.  Hv said to start at about 5 1/2 months.
I've looked at your links, they've given me a better idea of it now.

Sorry for rambling also just trying to give you a good idea of what's going on.

Thank you again for the help so far, I already feel we're getting somewhere so going push on. I need too for my sanity.

[trimbler]

Hey there, firstly, apologies I don't have loads of time right now and don't mean to sound terse but will have to keep this brief

Well done it does sound like you're doing really well at helping her to get to sleep in the cot you can gradually reduce the amount and duration of the help you're giving her as I said before, but tbh for now I'd probably continue as you are and concentrate on the routine. I think this will be more challenging unless you're able to stay in a bit, but perhaps once school starts up again this will be more possible? As far as you can, try to plan your day to allow for two naps at home. It's hard to see what times you tried to put her down for those failed naps yesterday? Just be aware that after a short nap (less than 1.5h) she'll need a reduced A time before her next nap. But I do understand that this won't always be possible with everything else going on. Absolutely fine to comfort her when she's screaming, especially when she's OT she'll need that. Sorry really have to go now, keep us posted, you're doing great

[Jo1stbaby]

Hi sorry for not coming back for ages.

Well naps are a disaster, I spend 20 mins getting her to sleep for her to sleep 30 mins, I've tried patting and going in before she wakes.  Sometimes she'll sleep with me patting until I stop and then she's awake.  If she wakes up its like she's had 2hrs sleep.  She's sll playful and determined not to go back to sleep.  I do try and put her down again but it ends up taking so long that it's almost bottle time.

Night times haven't been going too well either, some nights better than others.dobr nights she'll sleep for the first few hours then it's fidget fidget fidget which eventually wakes her up.  Do I can go from being in with her every 10 mins to half an hour.

Saying that we've had s pretty good night tonight.  Went to bed (nightmare getting her off to sleep in for) fir get to wake 5 mins after leaving room and then half hour after.  Once we hit past that she was fine, fed st 10.15, slept until 2.30 (6oz bottle) and dlrpt until 4.30.  Now she thinks it's playtime, (had to change her nappy), playing around for ages.  Had to AP as she wouldn't go to sleep although now when I out her down she wakes after 2 - 3 mins.

 Hoping now my dd1 is back to preschool we can get more of a routine with naps in. I go feel in some ways we've  gone backwards as I'm really struggling to get her to have more than 2 - 2 1/2 hrs total each day in Naps.  I know she's going to bed OT but don't know how else  to get her to have longer naps.  I can't put her bedtime forward anymore ascdjecdlresfh hoes down now about 6.30 to try and stop the OT.

[trimbler]

Hi there (((hugs))) it is a lot of work getting a routine established with independent sleep, but as you say, now that DD1 is back at preschool you should have a bit more time for that. What times are your school runs, and how long are you out for them?

Please could you post what happened today (and yesterday, if available) in terms of:

Up and E: 7am
S: PD 9am, shh pat, fell asleep 9:30-10, tried to resettle until 10:30, got up
E: 10:45
S: ...you see what I mean?

Include what happened at night too, if you can remember!

Can't remember whether you said, is her room very dark? Do you use white noise? Not essential, but some LOs find either/both very helpful.