23.5 mo LSN help and input

[jessmum46]

Good luck!!!

[athenasmom]

LOL I totally understand how liberating it is to realize your kid is LSN ... I had that too. My DD never did 12 hour nights either and the average is 10-10.5 here too with 11 hours if she had a short nap or no nap at all (that happened 3-4 times now  ) I had to make sure that I adjust my expectation to what her needs are 
Normally I would not recommend EBT because I know from my experience too that it does not work well for LSN kids. They don't tack on and will just wake earlier. But I thought that because his naps seem to be broken too it could help  The way to go with DD is to let her nap longer on these days. So maybe do an earlier nap and pray that he takes a long one and just let him sleep as long as he can today to catch up and then do a normal BT

[ginger428]

Thanks, Suzanna. Yesterday's nap was not longer than usual so went for EBT.

EBT sort of worked, but it was not pretty.

Aimed for put down at 6:00. He went ballistic. Screamed, cried, slapped, kicked, etc... for bed time routine. At put down, (6:10ish), he was so upset so I held him and patted. He finally fell asleep an hour later at 7:15. He had 2 crying NWs by midnight with intervention. He woke at 4:40 crying, at 9.25 hrs of sleep.  Held and patted him. He fell back asleep almost an hour later at 5:37 and woke at 6:22. So we got to a decent wake up time with a total sleep time of 10.10, which is the usual. No tack on sleep here, but at least we got a decent amount.

Nap went very well today... 12:45-2:47, a nice catch up nap, I think.  Tonight, put down was at 7:30 and bedtime went smoothly. I hope this is a reset!

[-Maya-]

Wow! Fx for you Ginger!

[jessmum46]

That's great! I'd call that a success

[ginger428]

EW at 5:30 or earlier. Another 9.30ish night.
Sigh. Not sure what to do. Maybe I have to ride this out.

[athenasmom]

UGH sorry  So disappointing when it looks like it is going to work but then it all just goes out the window. I'd say just keep up the good work and keep doing what you think works. With DD it takes a good 3-4 nights / days to kick the OT when it's built up like that. And we are here to hold your hand when you feel down 

[-Maya-]

Oh hugs Ginger. I know how you feel. I agree with Suzanna that also for us it takes time for a change to happen. For us it is OT or discomfort when DS wakes up unhappy and this allows me to understand that he has not slept enough. If he is happy and chatting also in next couple of hours then he has slept enough.

[athenasmom]

But you may also consider OT/UT loop. Maybe he does catch up fast just after 1 good nap. when is his normal BT? Is it a it later like 8-ish? Maybe after a good nap he does need that BT kwim?

[ginger428]

Thanks so much Suzanna and Maya.  I'm also just really tired.   He's been extremely today cranky and everything is a struggle.

Yes, BT is 8, but I put down at 7:30 because it takes him 30 mins to fall asleep. I have tried pd later, around 7:45, but he still took 30 mins.

[trimbler]

(((Hugs))) I can't help thinking that if he was averaging 12h TS 6mo ago, and then when he had his big catch-up nap, that plus his night was 11.5h...perhaps, he needs even less on a day when he's already caught up?? I'd really be inclined to cap that nap and perhaps not even let him use that to catch up on sleep... It just sounds to me that he can't do a long enough night (for him) after the naps he's been doing lately. Sorry I can't remember what they were now, was it 1.5h? Could you try waking him at 1.25h instead? May well be a UT/OT loop - uses the nap to catch up a bit and then isn't tired enough to sleep long enough at night?

Aside from all that - wow just noticed it's only a week or so until the big 2!!

[athenasmom]

I was thinking along the line with Trimbler. Although, I think there are cases when the nap shortening will not work. DS went through patches like that and capping the nap just cause OT. You might have to accept that he will not do longer than 9.5-10 hour nights. So maybe try to move his day later to make it to an acceptable WU time kwim?
For us BT is around 8:30 which I know is rather late for BW moms but it works well with our working days. Then she usually sleeps till 6:30-7. Everything before 6:30 is EW for us.

[ginger428]

Thanks, Trimbler. I know, in less than a week my baby boy will be 2! It's so remarkable how fast they grow in the early years.
It's definitely possible his catch up nap was too much. It seemed fine until last night.

Suzanna, we were doing 8/8:30-6/6:30 consistently for a while with 1.5 or so nap. I was starting to cap his naps when he started waking so early.

So the night before was good-ish, then last night wasn't.
Wu 5:35
N 12:24-1:53
Bt 7:54


Wu 5:48 (almost 10 hrs! hooray)
N 12:35-2:25
Bt 8:20 (asleep)

Wu 5:25 or earlier (9 hrs, booooo)
N 12:31 (will cap today at 2:00 latest, or maybe earlier)
Bt will aim for pd at 7:15/20 again

I've tried EBT, later bedtime... so now I want to try capping nap to 1 hr. I haven't yet because of his OT. Should I try it no matter his night? Then what about bedtime, keep it the same or move it later as someone suggested?

[trimbler]

First thing I noticed was 1.5h nap led to 10h night, then 2h nap got you 9h. I'd say definitely cap it at 1.5h at the very longest, and next decent night you get, perhaps try 1h15min? And then, idk, extrapolating those two data points, you'd expect a 10.5h night, so PD accordingly?? (So now I've shown my true physicist colours, with my linear approximation - I'm sure my mathematician DH would be appalled ) but joking aside, I think it's common to find LOs can end up with slightly more sleep overall on a shorter nap, and perhaps he needs that to avoid OT??

[ginger428]

I think you're both right, Trimbler and Suzanna.

Haha! Trimbler, you're so funny! I didn't know you were a physicist! So awesome. I did a stint in a Microbio/Rheumatology lab as a technician so your statement brought back memories. =D I wish I could give you all 210 days worth of data and have you and your husband figure out M's sleep for me.  Wouldn't that be something... a scientific algorithm that provides customized toddler sleep schedules and instructions. Lol.

Again, I think you're right, Trimbler and so I tried. I tried waking him up early from nap two days in a row  and he just cried, woke, then laid there for a few mins (I gave him a few mins) and then he went right back to sleep. He was so tired in the mornings and it was a struggle to get him to 12:30 nap time. (I feel like any earlier nap would move his WU even earlier, but I could be totally wrong). So I didn't have the heart to keep capping until I felt he was caught up... which perpetuated the shorter nights, and the OT cycle probably.

I had no choice when DH took him out this past Sat. and said he did a 1.15min nap in the car. But he didn't get home until 8:15, and M was a wreck. (He's usually in bed by 7:30). So given the circumstances, he fell asleep at 8:45, and the WU next day was 6:30! BUT, with a couple NWs. So the following 2 days were basically 8:30 BT (Thanks for the suggestion Suzanna), 1-2:30 Nap, 6:15/6:30 WU, until today. Woke at 4:30 and stayed awake until 6:00. Fell asleep and woke at 7:30. Refused nap at 1:00. Brought him out at 2:30. He fell asleep at 6:25. Our first official NND. Someone hold my hand. Haha. Cross fingers! I wonder what tonight will bring. A 6:00 WU would be heaven. Trimbler, I think you're the one that said he might be dropping his nap sooner than most. =(

QUESTIONS: What if he has an EW (say before 5:30ish)? BT? And if he wakes after 6, suggestions for nap time (I know length will be 1 hr)?

Oh, I forgot to mention that I ruled out a few things... hunger (gave him snack before bed), teething, wet diapers. I do think in the mix was a growth spurt, as he has all of a sudden grown out of his pants! He's so much taller! And mental, language development... full on sentences and compound sentences suddenly, jokes, etc...

Well, tomorrow is his birthday! He must have decided he doesn't want to miss anything during the day. Haha. Thanks everyone for your help.