Almost 5 mo and pu/pd--will it take ages?

[becj86]

Can you write out what your day looks like?

[sunny90]

Ok so here goes:
E-and WU 7
A
S- 945 seems to start getting tired, usually asleep by 10
1030 wakes up, lately he's been waking up even before half an hour sometimes, sometimes if it takes him longer to fall asleep he sleeps til closer til 11
E-11
A
E-1230 90 ml of formula with baby oatmeal mixed in
S-130/145-2/215
E-215/230ish
A
S/E-430-5 I nurse him to sleep and just sit with him for half an hour nursing, usually on the same side as before so there isn't much milk
E-530 solids
A
E-7
S-by 745ish usually. He does an interesting thing where he falls asleep nursing, I burp him and he doesn't stir, I put him in bed and about 5-7 min later he wakes up and then I take him out give him the dummy and pat his bottom til he falls asleep (pretty quickly because hes basically half asleep) and then it's for good that time
WU during the night between 4 and 530. No DF.
Last night we moved him to his own room and a big crib and he woke up at 345 which is earlier than he has since I discovered that a CN was so essential.
I would think he might be able to switch to a 3 hr A time but the problem is his short naps, and if his second nap is too late and is still short he won't manage the CN and will regress to waking up a lot at night. And I wanted to start teaching him to go to sleep by himself at bedtime.
Also lately he's not always managing the half hour nap, he's waking up after 20 or 25 min.
Whew.

[becj86]

I would think he might be able to switch to a 3 hr A time but the problem is his short naps,

The short naps may be helped by the longer A time - that first nap is UT, second is OT.

Are none of his sleeps independent? When he sleeps in the cot, is he awake or asleep when you put him down? Just that factor alone can affect whether you get a 45min waking or not - he may be waking because when he stirs, he realises he's not where he was when he fell asleep.

[sunny90]

How can his first nap be UT if it's at 3 hours? Also so should I be working towards independent sleep for bedtime and naps simultaneously?  He doesn't fall asleep by himself,  no.
Also I never get a 45 min waking 30 min was his max.

[becj86]

Sorry, I saw 9:45 to 10:30. Ignore my tired brain, sorry! I'll look at that again in the morning.

[sunny90]

Also last night he woke up at 1230 and wouldn't take the dummy to go back to sleep so ended up feeding him but he wasn't settling down so I finally just took him to bed with me...bad I know! But it was the end of a really crappy day and u just didn't have the emotional energy to deal.

[becj86]

Alrighty, brain seems to be functioning better this morning, I think.

What I'm seeing is that you're pushing A time with the aim of dropping the CN and getting long naps again. Essentially, LO may require a little help to get through the first few days of new A times, so just helping he get through that 30min waking by being there at 25min and watching for him to stir and holding his arms to prevent them flapping or just putting a hand on him to help him settle may help. If he's somewhere different from where he fell asleep, he may be waking due to that, so yes, independent sleep will help both naps and night - so much more practise for him to do both at the same time Its the same skill.

PUPD is difficult to sustain. There are other ways that should be tried first. I can help you work out what might suit him best if you like:
How is he currently getting to sleep?
How do you ideally want him to go to sleep?
Are there any limitations to your ability to do sleep training - must shut in chooks at 5pm regardless, or whatever?
What is his personality/temperament? The BW "Know Your Baby Quiz"

[sunny90]

Currently I swaddle him give him the dummy and hold him sideways against me and pat his bottom til he falls asleep. For naps and bedtime. I think he should probably lose the swaddle in order to get himself comfortable to fall asleep. Ideally would like to put him in his crib and have him go to sleep alone after a little nap/bedtime routine. Should I be switching to 2 naps now?

[sunny90]

I have no idea what type of baby he is, he wants to be held all the time and cries most times when I put him down (unless I stay and play with him). However when I play with him he's very cheerful. He's somewhere between s textbook/touchy/spirited baby it looks like.

[becj86]

Currently I swaddle him give him the dummy and hold him sideways against me and pat his bottom til he falls asleep

WRT swaddle - is he rolling? If so, he swaddle has to go for safety reasons.
WRT independent sleep, this is actually such an easy getting-LO-to sleep method to sleep train with gradual withdrawal - you can just do the same things but put him down drowsy and keep patting his bottom while he's in the cot til he drifts off. Over the course of a week or two, you'd put him down slightly more awake every few days and the reduce the patting gradually too.

[sunny90]

He's rolled from back to front once, but never swaddled.
WRT gradual withdrawal, how do I know how long to pat him in my arms? Do I take him out of the crib if he gets upset and start all over again and won't it then take ages and ages?

[becj86]

how do I know how long to pat him in my arms?

How do you currently know to put him down? Just observe and see what he does just before that point and put him down gradually earlier in the process of falling asleep.

Do I take him out of the crib if he gets upset and start all over again and won't it then take ages and ages?

You can. It doesn't generally take all that long if the routine is right and LO is actually tired. It also is unlikely to take much longer than normally putting him to bed if you do it gradually enough - he will learn in increments.

[sunny90]

Okay. I've decided he needs longer naps so I want to cut out the catnap, I was able to keep him asleep for longer in the morning and now nursing him at 11 to get a little more snoozing in so he can have his next nap from 230 to 4. Is it OK to try it cold turkey?

[becj86]

Is it OK to try it cold turkey?

Yes, absolutely. Keep it consistent for 3-4 days before changing though, so you know if its working for him.

[sunny90]

Thanks! I'll update.