Help with night waking and dropping night feeds, 6m

[Crispysage]

LO is waking erratically at night.

Here is an average schedule. I know his morning nap is too early/soon... but he is always SO TIRED after NW. He sometimes does a CT in the morning and then two longer sleeps later. Once or twice he has been unable to sleep in the afternoon and then we have an awake time of 4 hours  I usually work on at least 2hr awake time, try to get 2.5 - working towards loosing the CT. Sometimes he get the dinner solids after the CT if it happens early.

7am BF
8 solids
9 - S
10:30 - A
11 BF
12 Soilds
12:30 - S
2:30 - A
3 - BF
4 -Soilds
4:30 - S
5:30 A
6 bath
6:30 BF
7 - S
10:30pm DF
3am BF

Lately he has been crying at 8:30/9pm, he will wake crying at 11:30 if I go to bed without DF. He often also wakes around 1:30-2:30am, and lately with some constipation issues he struggles to go back to sleep after 3am feed. (can be awake for an hour or more, then makes morning nap too long and too soon.)

I think he is ready to drop the 3am feed because I have noticed lately the 7am feed is short and lazy, where he drinks a lot at 3am... he also cries for the second breast then. ( I was hoping to wean by doing only one breast at 3am feed by this stage.)

My DH is away for 2 weeks and so my mum is helping out - I was hoping to have her help to wean night feeds. He eats (solids) very well and many kinds although I wouldn't say it's completely established (in terms of variety) yet. But proteins are well under way. He is a big strong chap - He hit 8kg's at 5 months already.

He is going through a leap so that might also explain the extra wakings. And there has also been some pain cries so there might also be teeth in the mix.

Regardless I want to work towards dropping the eating at night. Should I try to push the DF out first? I'd obviously rather drop the 3am first. I can add that he is able to fall asleep by himself well, though unfortunately I am still having to swaddle him. As soon as I try to wean it he sleeps TERRIBLY because he pulls out the paci. (many of the NW are as a result of getting out of the swaddle.) I have read that I should wean the paci in this case... but I really don't want to do that. However I get that it's not a great idea to still be swaddling him... He just flails around and scratches without it though.  I am going to have to wean it (swaddle) as well though...


 

[FPT23]

Hi!

I'm sorry about your troubles! Hopefully you get some help you have been looking for here w us

Sooo first off, your LO is 6 mths... adjusted. According to your ticker... right? So I will go by that!

Now, many exciting (sometimes haha) stuff is happening at this age! So NWs tend to begin as well as some early wakes which is all developmental! I would like to mention that at least 1 BF is still very normally at this age- for you, it would be the DF instead of the others... when it comes to dropping NFs with a BF baby, you have to make sure he is getting enough BM during his day. Something I always advise since I too nurse my LO.

Ok, so getting back to the developmental phases..... so much goes on! LOs find new physical abilities such as sitting up unassisted and some begin to ATTEMPT crawling/rolling around. They get more mobile! Another awesome thing is teeth haha yay... many begin teething at this time! To add to the list, babies start solids which can also cause plenty of discomfort. With solids, I would avoid "dinner" for now or be very choosy of what you decide to offer if you do. I also would try to do solids quite a bit away from bedtime. Perhaps can help if that is an issue. Teething is mommys call but you can provide teething relief before BT as well, if you feel that is the culprit! ....and lastly and most importantly;

All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months

^^^^ I provided the link as it can be a very useful resource to keep on hand and revisit! ...going off of your EASY, i would suggests a slight increase in A times. However, do it gently and slowly so baby adjusts a bit easier and won't get excessively OT. Push ONE A time at a time, for 4 days. Once you feel baby as adjusted and continues to have good long naps, you can push the next A slightly for a few days, and so on and so forth. The key here is to be patient and push gently to allow LO to get used to the new A time. If you find he would be better w his morning A time, then start w that and continue

Hope this helps! Here is another link worth keeping under your belt too

Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!

Hugs xo

[FPT23]

I seem to have skipped the swaddling part!

My experience was the same but at 4mths! I ended up removing the paci first because it had become a prop and couldn't wean The swaddle without him pulling it out and such it was quite difficult but it is a step you will need to take eventually ...

I would say by now he is ready to wean and it shouldn't be too hard, hopefully .... for the swaddle. I believe it is "suggested" that it is best to wean the paci before LO hits 6mths and has an attachment? Don't quote me on that but if so, I'm sure now is better than later when they really would depend on it. Many moms just wait until baby is just able to remove and pop back in his mouth ! That works too but it just depends on you

Here's a link on how to wean the swaddle! Steps at a time and lots of patience

Weaning the swaddle - when, how, tips and tricks

You may find he sleeps better without it! ...with the paci- many like them and keep them! So do what you want when it comes to your baby ...I weaned it earlier because of that problem and instead, before a nap or BT, I swaddled and pd... making sure he was tired enough and I caressed his head instead or patted. That eventually took the place of the need for the paci. Yes he objected at first and I would have to pick up and hold instead but I would lay down drowsy and awake. Once he we got rid of the paci (my choice) we worked on swaddle

Hugs!!!

[Crispysage]

Thanks so much!

I am keen to keep the paci for those teething times, my LO's only have it when they sleep. unfortunately, combined with being swaddled this means baby has no idea how to put it in his mouth.

For day time naps he can easily go to sleep with neither paci or swaddle. But tonight I tried BT without either (I know it's a bit quick..) I eventually gave him the paci, but then had to go in and swaddle him an hour later as he was awake again and unable to calm (kicking and thrashing - like you say, increased mobility makes more interesting times.) I know one should wean the swaddle for safety too, and actually I had been working on it and had success a few weeks back, but then we went to the mountains and I swaddled him to keep him warm and then he got used to it again. 

Thanks for the advice re the BF - I did a gradual decrease in feeding with first LO and managed to drop the 3am feed at around 8mo. I have  one breast that is apparently much less productive than the other  and I used that to slowly get LO1 to eat less. I was trying to only give him that one at 3am and he wasn't buying... I realized since your post that I need to only offer the good one for a while before only offering the poor one. So the last 2 nights I have done that. A good fist step I hope. It certainly has resulted in more enthusiastic morning feeding. (I usually offer the poor one first at BT and DF... got to keep production up somehow! Pretty hilarious what we talk about on here. .  .)

[FPT23]

Your very welcome

...and yes, the things we talk about haha! Fun things... sometimes, huh

So he naps without the paci and swaddle!? Well that will make things easier! (Somewhat) ....have you tried PD without the paci, just swaddled, and try soothing him in other ways? Or does he depend on his paci throughout the night? .....honestly, I understand you kind of just want to get it all over with at once but the process can be more difficult and also harder on your LO. The process would be faster though... probably after 3/4 days he may adjust. Rather than slowly removing the swaddle and then figure out the paci thing. If your ok keeping the paci, maybe once you wean the swaddle, just hold him until drowsy and allow him to drift on his own? The link on the swaddle I sent you (above post) is a good one! Look over it if you need more on the topic.

BFing is always challenging isn't it? But worth the effort ...I think the way you weaned your first at 8mths is perfect. Nice and gentle. At that age too it seems more realistic for a BF baby to stop that extra NW session. That would just be your call hun. I can't really say but just amp your supply when you can and make sure he's getting enough in his day if you remove a NF. Make sure your first morning feeding, your fully loaded too haha

Xo hugs!

[Crispysage]

Thanks so much for the time you put in here. REALLY!

I had read the swaddle link previously, but I must go and read again, thanks! unfortunately,  LO #1 has gastro so I'm short on emotional time and space!  In better news though, LO #2 only drank at DF last night!!! I fed at 10pm and then he woke at 2ish ... and I reswaddled and settled quickly. Apart from 1 or 2 paci pops my mum did and I didn't know about,  he only woke again at 5:30 with his brothers sick EW.

 

After only 2 nights with one boob! Well I am not counting my chickens yet, but at least with all the boat load of poo I am (actually) dealing with, it was very nice to have some sleep!!!

Big BW hugs from Africa.

[Crispysage]

So it's been three nights that he wakes around 2ish and my mom settles him. (unfortunately by rocking, but the other DS was almost hospitalized yesterday with the gastro, so we have our hands full...) and then he wakes (and I feed him) at 5:30. Then again at 7. (once he slept once not.)

So now I am worried about making a EW habit.

?

[FPT23]

Sorry I've been out a bit!

Sounded like all was well then it went back again? Sorry about that! At this point since he had been doing so well, it could be another cause maybe? Teeth? Tummy? The EW, could it be outside noise or light lately? ...EWs are also developmental at times. don't worry about it becoming a habit. Give it some time, it should fade again.

How old is your LO now? Be mindful of GS as well

I'm very sorry to hear about your DS ! How is he?

Many hugs from the states!!! TEXAS! we are so far away!

[Crispysage]

Thanks, yes- things went well and then difficult again. Last night was DF 10. Then awake at 1,2,3 and fed him at 4. Then EW at 5:30 totally throws off the days Schedule. Which is frustrating because that's what I'm trying to work on! So that's a 6hr without milk but poor sleep for everyone. Those first wakes were easy with a dummy till 4 when he was sucking my chin so I fed him. Like you say it could be teeth or tummy. I gave him something at BT but obviously not strong enough. What is GS? His age is 7mo.

So today was
4am - E bf
5:40 -A
6:15 - E bf
7:20 -E
7:50 -S tired!
8:40 A
10:15 E bf
11:00 -S
11:20 paci
1:10 -A
1:30 - E
2:00 E bf
2:45 -S (car)
3:10 -A
4:20 -E
6:00 -E bf
6:15 -S
9:45 - paci
10:00 DF

SO waking for DF!? Day is all over the place with food too close together too short and too long a times - just a tricky transition time I guess. Hoping for a better night!

Advice about how to try keep the days on some semblance of order? A times difficult to stretch if his night was so bad.

DS still making 6/7 poo nappies, but eating well so on the mend. Shame -I did a lab sample of his poo, paed says just needs fluids and time.

[Crispysage]

Reread and I didn't make it clear that I've weaned the swaddle and kept the paci.

After an awful night and even less sleep yesterday (45 mins am 45 mins pm and 1.5 just before BT) It's no wonder he was ready for cot party at 5am. We did however have a very good night. I decided to drop the DF. Every night I stay awake till 10 but I just couldn't last night. He needed at paci at 9:30. Then woke at 1:30 I fed then woke happy at 5. It's 6 now and I haven't yet fed him.

Thought I'd see if he'd make it to 7. Then probably he'll go to sleep then though /:

So advice for how handle day's schedule with ew?

Haven't forgotten the advice to start stretching the a times but maybe I'm stretching too much to be getting the 45 min naps. I'm usually doing 2,5hrs max so far.

[Crispysage]

3x 45 min naps today

[FPT23]

Sorry about the bad nights!!

Ok, could it be that the paci has become a prop?

Also, when he woke every hour that one night, I would usually suggest that to be discomfort. Gas? Teeth? Especially if that's his normal. As we had said, he was doing well then stopped... and now these hourly NWs- have you ate anything new or something that could cause discomfort? Or offered a new solid? Just a few suggestions...

At this age, with EWs I would try my best to continue to stick with a set nap as if he had never done an EW. That's what I do and did then. I just PD for an EBT.

45 mins generally mean under tired. Here's a link to AVERAGE A times. If your at 2.5 max, he's def ready for a push hun. I was at 3hrs by that time. By 6.5 or so because that is when he had more consistently switched to 2 naps a day....WHICH normally by your LOs age, he should be at. However, you won't get to only 2 naps a day if those naps aren't longer and A time reaches 3hrs. But, if he isn't sleeping independtly and relies on a paci, it could be that he's just waking at his first cycle and not able to transition on his own. Could the paci be the issue? .....if not, is there a chance you can resettle those short naps? How is he when he wakes at the 45 min mark? Moody or happy?

To help push A times gradually and gentle as to avoid OT melt downs, push by 15 min increments every 3-4 days and only ONE A TIME, at a time. For instance, if he's at 2.5 then for 3-4 solid days, have him asleep. Y 2.45. If you push just his morning A, don't push the others. Wait for him to adjust and then try maybe his afternoon A next. You need to get closer to 3 hrs at this age sweetie. Also, when he short naps, bring up the next A time by 5-10 mins. Can also help OT.

GS means growth spurt which occurs around the 6 mth mark

Xo

[Crispysage]

I'm back for more!

Feeling quite despondent actually

I have been trying to stretch the second A time, but with my DH away, other LO illness, a 2 wk house guest, but most especially the EW, NW constipation and possible teething, things are ALL over the place.

LO is firmly 7m now (adjusted or not but he just jawns and rubs he eyes at 2.5 hours (really struggling to push things slowly up to 3...) In the afternoon I am often struggling to get him down for CN which can mean he is A for 4/5 hrs even if I push BT to 5:30! My schedule is shot to $-*! I do put him in a carrier if I can't get it right for CN.

Note that he is good at independent sleep in general, but sometimes he's just NOT (is it too early for separation anxiety?) It feels like he has been "teething" for 3 or 4 weeks now! I don't mind medicating if I am sure it's pain, but it's very hard to tell as when he is OT he rubs his mouth too I think? Also, you asked about paci prop - I have been working on that (letting him use it during A times - and it's much better, i.e I can put the paci in his hand at night now.)

I'm really struggling to organize/normalize a routine that he can know what to expect. Also I run into the constant problem when he EW that he needs to bf right when he needs to sleep, which is turning us into bf to sleep, and makes it really hard to push A times! In the same vein, I often end up giving him solids RIGHT before a nap (not right before BT though) Apart from this being a possible bad idea in terms of physically lying down after eating, it's a bad idea because he eats tired - rubbing food in in eyes.  But I need to space out the bf and solids and I don't want to feed him after CT too close to BT?

I do think that his chronic constipation is playing a role in his NW. I am doing my best to manage that with osmotic laxatives which I trust as I used them to great success with LO#1 But it is a constant job keeping the levels right!

Here is a current EAS example. 

5:15 A  -bf
6:30 E - breakfast
7:00 E - bf
7:45 S
8:30 A 
10:00 - snack
11:00  - bf
11:15 - sleep
12:45 - A
1:30 - Lunch
3:00 -bf
3:15 - sleep
4:00 - A
4:15 - dinner
6:30 - BT
11:40 wake and bf
1am wake
2:30 wake
4am bf
6am wake (then I would only bf at 7)

in this example the obvious problem is the 45 minute nap in the morning. But honestly every day is different so I just made this up to ask that question. I should post an alternate. Gosh I am tired, I hope this all makes sense, thanks so much for any feedback!

[Crispysage]

Sorry I realized I have not answered some of your questions! Plus you have already said that your advice is to get to 3 hours. so you are going to say the same thing... no chance that he's not ready for being pushed...? Plus I am trying to push, it's just difficult when he is so tired from not sleeping nights. Rotten chicken egg situation.

At this age, with EWs I would try my best to continue to stick with a set nap as if he had never done an EW. That's what I do and did then. I just PD for an EBT.

I guess maybe part of my problem is that I just add in more CT so match other LO BT for 6:30. Too much going on to have 2 BT.... But I can get DH help and maybe work on this.

.....if not, is there a chance you can resettle those short naps? How is he when he wakes at the 45 min mark? Moody or happy?

 Also, when he short naps, bring up the next A time by 5-10 mins. Can also help OT.

I can usually tell if I am going to be able to resettle - if his eyes are red and he is mostly keeping them semi closed and is unhappy I can hold him for a bit and he goes down. Usually after 45 wake up he is happy and ready to play But today at second nap I was able to resettle.  I am not sure what you mean by "bringing up A time" you mean make the next a time shorter by 5-10 mins? I must say it's difficult to be so precise with times as I often get to him he has been awake for a while - I am never sure how long his eyes have been open when he wakes happy he often plays for a while before "calling"

Thanks again! I hope there are some clear questions to answer!

[Crispysage]

So another BAD night with multiple waking and after over an hour and meds I fed him the second time. (11 and 3). This morning up before 6 and had to stretch him to make it to 2.5hrs awake time. Now when I put him down to nap he was very OT. And I realized thats when he can't independent sleep, he needed a lot of help now so I am expecting him to wake up in 45 mins, I'll go and hover to see if I can help him later.