10mth old still a terrible night sleeper. Please help me get some sleep

[malibu_nikkus]

My guy has always been a terrible night sleeper. Im going crazy!!!! Whether he sleeps well in the day or not doesnt seem to affect the amount of wake ups.
He has two EASY dependant on if we are home or out with his siblings. Often it is this (otherwise it would be long am nap and short pm nap with 3.30min wake times all day.
7am wake
10 30 sleep in car or stroller for 45mins
11 15 bf
12 30 lunch
2.30 sleep usually 1-1.5hrs
4pm wake and feed
5 30 dinner
6.30 bf
7pm bed. Goes to sleep independently mostly with paci, occasionally falls asleep bf

Then comes the fun. On a good night,  He wakes every 1.5-2hrly until 10pm. Then sleeps a good 4hr block. Then after that block he wakes every 1-1.5hrs again. I only feed 4hrly and will try super hard to settle him in cot.  At times i need to cuddle him to sleep. On a bad night he wakes 1.5-2hrly all night  long without the block in between.

Some days he has had one 2hr nap, but even with an early bedtime, he wakes 30-45min later and unable to go back to sleep even with a nap. He treats it like a nap.

Any ideas on what I can do? Im exhausted!

[deb]

Sounds like he might be restless from pain (teething?) or discomfort (food intolerances?). It also sounds like he might be OT if he's that restless. Has he started any new skills, or working on them, like pulling up more/trying to walk/trying to talk? Developmental leaps can also mess with sleep.

If you're in the 2-to-1 transition, might be worth trying to push for the longer A time (unless he's patently tired from a bad night's sleep before), as much physical activity as he'll tolerate in the afternoons - I found after swimming both my kids SLEPT! - and make sure he's getting a good satisfying meal to sleep on. Might it be worth trying pain meds 20 minutes before bed to see if he sleeps longer? That would give you a clue as to whether something is causing pain (molars?).

[malibu_nikkus]

He is a very active bub. For a few mths he has been crswling. Babbling has increased too. 

Went to doc yesterday. We are treating him for allergic rhinitis which has caused some fluid on the ears. After his anti histamine last night, he had a much better night. He woke 9pm, 1am (feed and a big one), 4.30am (feed, one side). Hopefully the antihistamine will help in the day to feed better so he wont need so much at night.

Why do you think he wakes after 1.5hrs at night?

How do you transition to one nap when he treats his bed time as a second nap of the day and has a very short nap at 6pm?

[malibu_nikkus]

Still having these problems. He has started waking 2hrly again even while on these meds. He went from waking 1-2 times in the night to waking 2hrly. I gave paracetamol which made no difference. The difference is, he self settles for all sleeps without any tears.

His little pattern seems to be:
Wake 7.30
Feed and breakfast
11am feed and usually a short 45min nap while out and about
12pm lunch solids
3pm bf and bed by 3.30
5pm wake and dinner
7pm bf
7.30 bed

Where am I going wrong? He is still on the antihistamine. The doc said his ears are looking great but to cont for another week. It is so cruel that he was sleeping well for 3 days and is gone again. So cruel!

[My little Liam]

It seems to me his is UT but falling asleep at BT because its been his routine for a long while and he is used to it. My DD is not even 9 months old yet and there is no way she would sleep well if her BT after a 1.5hr nap was after a 2.5hr A time. She would need around a 4hr A time after that kind of nap if not more! She also would never give me a full 12hr night at this point. I think an 11hr night is a bit more realistic.

You should probably cut the morning nap to 30 minutes to be able to fit in a longer A time in the evening
Something like
WU 0730
A 3.5hr
S 11-1130
A 3.5hr
S 3-430
A 4hr
BT 830

[malibu_nikkus]

Ah ok. Ill try a longer wake time. Also even after a short nap, are they able to cope with a long wake time like 3.5hrs..oops. 

Im finding some days he wont sleep till 12 or so when out and about. He then isnt ready for nap until late, then i have to wake him so it doesnt get too late. What is the latest you can let them nap in afternoon so bedtime isnt past 8?

[My little Liam]

We do long morning nap usually and my DD won't fall asleep before a 4hr15 A so we do something like

WU 7
A 4hr15
S 1115-1245
A 4hr I APOP this one so I can fit the nap in the day otherwise she won't fall asleep for the secon nap for at least another 15 minutes
S 445-515
A 2hr45
BT 8

Usually by the end of the day she will fall asleep with a short A because she has such long As the rest of the day and the last nap is short

If you want to do a short morning nap go for something like

WU 7
A 4hr15
S 1115-1145
A 2hr45/3hr
S 2/215-330/345
A 4hr15/4.5hr
BT 745/8

I think you will just have to play with the A times a bit here or there until you can figure out what works best. If you want BT to be at 8 the latest you might have to deal with a bit of an earlier wake up because once he sleeps better and has less NW I doubt he will be doing a full 12 hours.
If he is sometimes awake in the morning until 12 after a 730 WU then let him sleep for 1.5 hours and then put him down for a short 20-30 minute CN in the late afternoon with a short A to BT. I wouldn't let him have a 2hr nap though at this point as you won't have time for that CN and he probably isn't ready for one nap just yet so all it will do is get you a super late BT. (It's happened to us before)

[malibu_nikkus]

This is sooo incredibly helpful, thank you. Ill play around and see what happens.  Since having one nap or two shorter ones, he finally has a long block of sleep at night, followed by terrible blocks in the second half of the night. Why would this be? His night at the moment are like this:
BT 7.30pm
Feed 11.30/12.30am
4am ish wake and feed
5am - wake. bed with me with a feed
6 30/7am wake for the day.

[Martini~]

Honey it's worth checking if he isn't hungry. According to your post on bottle feeding if he hasn't gained weight in last 4mo it might be worth investigating.

[My little Liam]

For us early morning wakings happen when my DD needs another push to her morning  A time. Even 10-15 minutes makes a difference

[malibu_nikkus]

Oh lovely. He was awake for 3.5hrs during the night happily playing. Didn't seem hungry. This was his routine yesterday.
6am wake
9.45-10am sleep in car
2-4pm nap
7.30pm sound asleep

How can I tweak this? The 3hr play in the night wasnt fun.

[deb]

Wow, he's keeping us thinking, isn't he?

My guesses, in no particular order, are 2-1 transition, maybe new teeth, developmental leap happening or about to - my kids' sleep always went wonky right before milestones like rolling over or new words or complete sentences.

I'm stumped right now...been too long since I had such a little bub! Anyone else?

[My little Liam]

i think a few things are going into play here...
You did a 3hr45 A time before morning nap which might need a push to be honest but the two that stick out the most are  the 3.5hrA before bed after a 2hr nap and also the fact that he was awake for 4 hours after a 15 minute nap in the morning. I know he slept for 2 hours but still not a good idea I think. Before bed You need to put him down after a minimum of 4hrs A after a nap of more than 1.5hrs. I think your day should be a bit more like

WU 6
Nap 1 945-10
A 2.5hr
Nap 2 1230-230
A 4-4.5hr
BT 630/7

Other than that yes developments and teeth all make a difference here as well...

[malibu_nikkus]

Thank you. It helps me so much to have a schedule to work towards. Unfortunately it was pear shaped some yesterday as he only took a 1hr second nap.  So his day was like this.
6am wake
9.45-10.20 - nap in car
1 30 2.30 - nap
6.15 sleep
10pm wake and feed
Night waking every 2hrs...ahhhh!!!

[malibu_nikkus]

We are home today. Ive managed to push his first wake time to 4.5hrs. He only slept 1.15hrs and awoke tired.  What should the next week time be? Is 1hr nap actually restorative?