Question/Issue with extending naps

[Olga_W]

Hello! I need some assistance/advice regarding transitioning to 4 hour routine and extending naps.
Here is my little boy background:
He is almost 5 months old. Overall he has been a good night sleeper but not so good during the day. Most of the time he takes 30-45 min naps. Sometimes longer and rarely 1,5 hour.  He wakes up happy. Because of his short naps I have always struggle to maintain the EASY routine. I kept feeding him regularly every 3 hours. If he got up earlier I just took him out of the crib, waited for next feeding and again we had activity time until his next nap by when he was ready for sleep. The feedings are short as well (they always were but he is gaining weight and growing fine) Good feed is about 20 min but recently his feeds during the day are about 10 min. Up to about 2 weeks ago he was swaddled-now he sleeps with one hand out because he would unswaddle and wake up and it was hard to swaddle him back as he kept pulling his hands out. He got his first teeth last week. Up to now he used to fall asleep with paci; however, he started taking it out, chewing it and eventually dropping and crying. I have to put it back couple times before he falls asleep.
I have set my mind couple weeks back to start moving him to 4 hour routine and taking away the pacifier before it starts to be a bigger issue. I waited for his teeth to come out and finally stated 2 days ago. As I was readying in Tracy's book I moved his feeding 15 min later and to get him back to sleep if he woke up earlier from his nap adopted a modified version of PU/PD (he cries but does not like to be picked up, he arches his back and pulls away- if he cries hard I still pick him up but mostly I do not and just put my hand on his chest, I also avoid talking to him because instead of sleeping he engages in activity). The first day was a bit rough but we made it through. Yesterday was much better. Today we have it rough again. Here is the issue that I am having. I do not have a problem with putting him down for sleep or sleeping through the night. He is doing very well without paci and goes to sleep with little or no fussing. The problem is when he wakes up. He will wake up about 40 min into his nap and I will listen for his cry before I go in. He will be fine or just little fussing for about 15-20 min and than starts crying. Once he does I will go in but at this moment there is 30 min left of his nap. I will do PU/PD for next 20-30 min and but he does not want to go back to sleep. He gets more and more agitated and I am looking at the clock and its almost time to feed him. I read that you have to stick to the clock when you do the transition so I just pick him up and feed. Note: the moment I unswaddle him he is all cheerful, if I would swaddle him back he would start crying.
So my question are: Do I continue doing what I am doing now and stick to the plan? If he wakes up early try PU/PD for the rest of the nap time? Also, should I move the routine if he wakes up at before 7?

[creations]

Hello and welcome to BW forums
Sorry to see you didn't get any replies yet. I'll have a read through your post properly  now and hopefully can offer some advice for you.

[creations]

Hi again
Sounds like you are doing well, especially working out that he prefers to stay in the cot unless he is crying hard, having a hand on him is fine, it is also fine to shush/pat in the cot too (or just pat or a stroke/rub) if that helps him to calm down and relax.

4 months is a time when many babies short nap so it can be a tricky time to start sleep training because there is a developmental period where these short naps are common even for babies who have already learned to sleep independently.  The developmental period usually passes by around 6 months which should give you hope, although that month ahead can feel much longer when you're in the thick of it.

It may be possible for you to help him stay asleep using W2S (wake to sleep) here is a link describing it, have a look at naps option 1
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=223809.0
it is often easier to do this and catch LO before they wake or as they wake and begin the soothing before they get themselves fully alert and into the crying. Once they are crying it can take a lot more time and effort to get them to relax and sleep again. This can cut down on the work load and increase the sleep time.  It is also a method used to teach your LO that he is supposed to sleep longer and can help him to learn to transition from one sleep cycle to the next on his own.  You would usually do this W2S for 3 days, hold off day 4 to see what happens and then begin another cycle if he fully woke. You can continue in these cycles.

Another thing is to check his routine is suitable for him as a routine which is not appropriate for his age or individual needs will make it much harder for him to sleep or stay asleep, and therefore harder for you to get him back off to sleep.
If you would like to post your EAS times I can have a look?

Do I continue doing what I am doing now and stick to the plan? If he wakes up early try PU/PD for the rest of the nap time?

This is the approach used by Tracy, yes. Many parents find this too much work though so if you feel lacking in energy or losing patience then it is probably better to limit how long you try to resettle for (ie if it doesn't look like he is calming within 10 mins you might give up then) or to choose one nap per day where you put in that level of effort to resettle (this helps towards the sleep training) and let the other naps go.  If you choose this second option I suggest you stick with the same nap every day as LOs pick up habits (eg nap 1).

Also, should I move the routine if he wakes up at before 7?

Again there are two options really. One is to treat all wake ups prior to 7am as NWs (night waking) and keep him in his room with your support if he is crying to try to resettle him - this teaches him when morning starts.The other is to accept that he wakes early, start the day but adapt the routine to be suitable (counting the first A from when he wakes).  If the WU time is a problem for you then you'd need to look at the overall routine to see what needs to change to encourage a suitable WU time.

Please feel free to ask further questions and to post your EAS times if you have them. If not you can begin recording them and post in a few days.  When you post times it helps us a great deal if you post the real times of what actually happened rather than the times you hope for or a routine you would like to see, although obviously it's ok to say you'd prefer a later morning wake up time or if you need naps to fit in with some non-movable family commitment or something of that nature.

hope this helps some

[Olga_W]

Thank you for responding. His naps actually slowly improve so there is a progress and I am hoping we will reach our goal. I did try the W2S method about a month ago. Initially he did nap longer but after few times he actually was awake when I went into his room- almost like he was anticipating me . Than he started teething and I did not attempt to continue.

So I did stick to the plan and since I originally wrote the post we had some changes. He does wake at 6am every day but he started going back to sleep on his own and either wakes up around 7 or I go in and wake him up. So my issue with early waking solved itself .  His first nap also extended to about 1,5h so that is good (although today we woke up after an hour). The rest of the naps still varies.

Yes, resettling is quite demanding. For the moment I just approach it one nap at a time. If he is suppose to have 1,5h nap and wakes up after 30 min, I will attempt PU/PD. However, if he wakes up after an hour and is not crying I know now there is no point to try to resettle him back to sleep- he will not.

I will start writing down his EAS routine and post in in couple days so you can take a look. As I mentioned in my original post, I started transitioning him to a 4h routine. I use the plan from the book as a guide-although it is a bit confusing (the suggested times do not add up with suggested nap lengths). Even more confusing is the fact that I do have a polish translation of the book and  the 4h transition plan varies from the one in original book (in some instances by as much as 45 min). I do make sure I watch the clock as suggested by Tracy. So when you will look at it please keep in mind that we are in the middle of this process.

[creations]

This FAQ may help with the routine times. I believe there is a known typo in the book, as Tracy has passed away these things cannot be changed.  I believe thought hat I reviewed the times on that FAQ to try to make it a bit clearer, of course it is only intended as guidance and some LOs sleep 1.5hrs and some 2hrs so it is hard to put up a routine which fits all when the idea of BW is that it fits your individual baby and not all babies.  Maybe this helps though:
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=63161.0
There is another link here which is a slower move towards the 4hrEASY which some people find helpful:
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=120362.0

We frequently look at routines which are not as stated in the book - in fact we do not expect routines to be as stated in the book so don't worry about it, just post whatever happens.  We do have the FAQs on the forums but we encourage everyone to post their own thread simply because every LO is different and what suits one will not suit another, so we try to give everyone individual advice.

[Olga_W]

Thank you, I will read through it.
I understand that we still must be flexible. As I first time mom I learned it after few weeks and I actually made a lot of things easier and less stressful. I figured I would go by the plan or try to stick to the plan as much as we can so it would help with the transition. So far he is doing well and I do not see any major issues or concerns.

[creations]

OK   Let me know if you have more questions or how you get on.

[Olga_W]

Here is my baby routine for past 4 days:
7/9/17

E: 7:20 (woke up 7:10)
A: 7:40
S: 9:00
E: 10:20 (woke up 10:00)
A: 10:50
S: 12:00 ( took him 20 min to settle)
     Woke up at 12:45-I was able to resettle him back to sleep
E: 13:45
A: 14:05
S: 15:15
E: 16:45
A: 16:55 (bath)
E: 18:25
S: 18:50
DF: 22:50

7/10/17

E: 7:13 (woke up 7)
A: 7:35
S:8:55
E: 10:40 (woke up 10:20)
A:10:55
S: 12:15 (woke up 12:50-unable to settle)
A: 13:10
E: 13:30
A: 13:45
S: 15:10 (OT- did not settle until 15:45, woke up after 20 min- couldn't get him back to sleep)
A: 16:22
E: 16:40
A: 16:55 (bath)
E: 18:10
S: 18:35
DF: 22:50

7/11/17

E: 7:20
A: 7:40
S: 9:00
A: 10:15 (woke up 10 couldn't get him back to sleep)
E: 10:50
A: 11:15
S: 12:25
A: 13:40
E: 14:05
A: 14:15
S: 15:20
A: 16:20
E: 16:50
A: 17:08 (bath)
E: 18:35
S: 19:00
DF: 11:00

7/12/17

E: 7:00 ( woke up 6:30)
A: 7:20
S: 9:10 (did not want to settle-trying to roll over, took about 20 min, not good sleep, woke up around 9:40, put him back to sleep)
E: 11:00
A: 11:15
S: 12:50 (woke up 13:15- couldn't get him back to sleep)
A: 13:15
E: 14:05
A: 14:20
S: 15:30 (woke up after 30 min-tried to sleep but fussing)
A: 16:35
E: 17:00
A: 17:12 (bath)
E: 18:30
S: 19:20
DF: 11

Past two days have been chaotic. He wakes up after 30 or 40 min and does not want to go back to sleep. In past couple days he also started practicing rolling over-he has not figured it out yet but his crib is where he mainly does it. On 7/10 his afternoon nap was bad and it was my fault-I was running an errand and got him OT.
So in your opinion is the OT or rolling over what is causing the issue with napping? It seemed that we were on right track just few days ago

[creations]

Hi there
Quite often things can seem to be going well and then go off track again. Yes it can certainly be that rolling over is disturbing sleep, all sorts of development will disturb sleep, but it might also be that in certain parts of the routine the A times have ended up a bit long resulting in OT which can effect the rest of the day and the night too.  It could be that a little tweak on your routine could help.

I notice a few places on your EASY where A time goes over 2hrs, some times over 3hrs and this can lead to OT.
My hunch, from looking at your times and what's happening is that a 2hr A time would be the thing to try for on each of the A times for now.  Also try to watch out for the last A time getting long before BT. If naps have been shorter in the day you can end up with more time left at the end of the day than expected, you might need to try a short CN (in a sling or in arms if needed) or put down for EBT (early BT) to make sure he doesn't get OT.  The morning he woke early (6.30am) had a 2hr 40 A time before BT which could have led to the earlier waking where as the day he woke at 7am he'd had just under 2hrs A time before BT (if I am following your times correctly that is).

If he is regularly waking at 30-40 mins unable to go back to sleep and the A time has been 2hrs or slightly less it is more likely he is UT and needs the full 2hrs or maybe 5 mins longer. If he is jolting and waking crying at more like 20-30 mins and it's been an A time longer than 2hrs it is more likely OT.  Hope this helps.  Sometimes it isn't the A time at all, but like you said the rolling, as soon as they come into light sleep or approach the transition between sleep cycles they automatically practice their skills and then wake up or get stuck.  You could try W2S during developments to help him stay asleep.

hope this helps

[Olga_W]

Thank you very much. I will follow your advice and watch his activity time to be around the 2h mark. I hope this will bring us back on track