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Author Topic: E.A.S.Y. but CRYING -- inadequate ritual?  (Read 4486 times)

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Offline palaeologus

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E.A.S.Y. but CRYING -- inadequate ritual?
« on: August 10, 2005, 23:39:55 pm »
Well, I'm the father of a LO who will turn seven months later this week.  She has been on E.A.S.Y. for the past several months, and we used to have relatively simple nighttime putdowns on her tummy in her crib after a good size bottle of EBM.  However, she has taken in the past ten days to crying between 45-150 minutes at her nighttime putdown, which has followed a shorter bottle.  Here is a typical day's schedule:

7:00 (a.m.) awake/diaper change/bottle (5 oz.)
7:30-8:30 Dad plays with her on the floor of her room
8:30-8:45 Dad takes her to front porch to watch birds and cars for "calm time"
8:50-10:15 Naps after 5 min. cry session
10:15-11:00 Mom takes over, changes her clothes and plays with her
11:00 bottle (5 oz.)
11:30 plays in jumper or playard or goes for walk in stroller
12:30 p.m. solid food (stage 1 veggies or fruit)
1:00-2:30 nap after 10 min. cry session
2:30-3:00 change diaper and short play
3:00 bottle (5-7 oz.)
3:30 activity similar to 11:30 session
5:00 solid food similar to 12:30 p.m. session
6:15 disrobe for bath
6:30 bath
6:45 nightclothes (crying) and bottle in darkened room (very variable -- 3-7 oz.)
7:15 down for night (the putdown crying has gone from 10 mins. to much longer, as detailed above)
10:30 (or upon hearing waking noises) dreamfeed bottle (6 oz.)

Even on our LO's best putdowns, it has required our keeping a hand over her back to keep her from turning and thrashing, and she always, always cries.  I tried PU/PD for a few days a few months ago for naps and nighttime and posted on that board at the time (DW wound up vetoing it after two or three 40 min. crying sessions), and resurrected it with limited success one night this week (again 40 mins. of crying) to return LO to sleep 45 mins. after nighttime putdown when DW was "out with the girls."

We think the bath may not be calming her, and we're considering dropping it, but we will have to bathe her some time during the day in exchange (messy eater lol).  It just seems like she shouldn't be crying every time she is put down, no matter when she goes down or who puts her down.  Should we consider a lovey?  Or is it just that we're not doing a suitable ritual? (Incidentally, we do use a repeating ocean-waves CD for white noise at each sleep interval).
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Offline Katet

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E.A.S.Y. but CRYING -- inadequate ritual?
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2005, 08:17:27 am »
Am I reading correctly, she is awake from 2.30pm to 7.15pm, if that is the case, I think she is overtired, that is a long time (my 2yo does that length & is sometimes overtired)
I think you need to add a cat nap around 4.30pm (30-45mins) to help tide her over & give her the energy to cope with the bath.
Also with the crying before naps, maybe outside is too stimulating & you may need to do the calm session in a chair in her room.
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Offline palaeologus

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E.A.S.Y. but CRYING -- inadequate ritual?
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2005, 17:11:53 pm »
That makes sense (the catnap).  The trouble is that DW and I know that LO will fight that nap as much as her others.  I guess I can pitch it to DW as a way to at least divide the aggregate crying sessions if she will resume going down quickly at night.  Hey, if it saves the bath . . .

LO is not a fan of simply being held in a chair (kinda wiggly and complaining that way), but the bedroom might be darker and calmer than the front porch.
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Offline dkjokisch

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E.A.S.Y. but CRYING -- inadequate ritual?
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2005, 19:43:35 pm »
We're having the same problem except it's a new development for us.  Dd normally goes down quite well for naps and bedtime, but in the last two days she has screamed for 15 minutes to an hour prior to nap/bedtime.  This happened about six weeks ago, but we chalked it up to visiting MIL and subsequent travel (and associated sleep deprivation, overstimulation, and disruption of routine).  Thought?
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Offline Katet

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E.A.S.Y. but CRYING -- inadequate ritual?
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2005, 22:37:32 pm »
Palaeologus... I would actually say the crying may decrease over all the naps & night time as extended crying is a way for lo's to get rid of the stress from being overtired... it may take a week or so, it did with my first when I discovered that his crying at bed/nap time was overtiredness & I certainly notice if I miss tired signs with ds#2 he has a cry before sleep time, which he doesn't normally.
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Offline theycallmemom

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E.A.S.Y. but CRYING -- inadequate ritual?
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2005, 03:18:01 am »
I just want to add that I also think your daughter is overtired, it doesn't seem as though she is napping enough and maybe has too much awake time.  Also I would really consider not doing the dream feed.  NONE of my three kids had or needed this feeding past 3 months.  I know BW advised 7 months or something, but my babies didn't need that feeding that long, it just disrupts her sleeping pattern more.
Darci
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Offline palaeologus

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E.A.S.Y. but CRYING -- inadequate ritual?
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2005, 16:11:37 pm »
First of all, about the dream feed: LO is a classic dream feeder and doesn't even open her eyes most nights -- she takes several ounces in the crib and rolls her head away to indicate she's had enough.  At this late date, I think DW will be unwilling to depart from Tracy's advice of DFing until 7 months or until solid food is established, followed by gradual elimination.

We're making progress on the early naptime crying -- down to less than five minutes in the morning now and she is napping until closer to her late-morning feed.  Nighttime crying has dropped some as well (Domino's Pizza territory -- 30 minutes or less even with the p.m. bath).  But the aggregate sleep and sleep-timing issues that the responders have brought up are still pertinent IMO.  I think if the morning nap goes just a little longer, we might be able to start the afternoon nap later and stick with two naps without overtiring her now that she's a little older.  I have heard babies in LO's age bracket (she has the same birthday as your LO, dkjokisch!) described as needing "more than 2 naps but less than 3" and this seems to be where we are.
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Offline GG

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E.A.S.Y. but CRYING -- inadequate ritual?
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2005, 02:32:26 am »
Palaeologus, what is your LO's temperament?  The crying before each naptime and bedtime may just be because of his temperament (touchy, spirited or grumpy?).

My DS is touchy/spirited, and he cries before every single nap.  At one point I thought that I had been too eager in reading his sleepy cues and maybe tried to force naps on him, but I don't believe that to be the case because, if I keep him up longer, he just gets fussier and fussier and it's more difficult to get him to sleep.  He just likes being awake, even if he's really tired.

It can take me 15-30 min to get him down for a nap and for bedtime.  He definitely gets enough sleep (he's got the 2 hour morning nap and 2-3 naps at 45 min each in the afternoon), and he's great when he's awake, so I think it's just his temperament.  The room is dark and I've tried having a non-stimulating day (though he's started rolling over and that's all he ever wants to do now).  Neither make a difference.  The minute we walk into the dark room, he starts whining and complaining.  It really makes me hate naptime (though it's slowly getting a bit better) and I look forward to his bedtime!  :oops:  :(

(btw... my sister's bday is Jan 13 as well, but she was born in 1973  :P)
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Offline palaeologus

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E.A.S.Y. but CRYING -- inadequate ritual?
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2005, 20:44:58 pm »
I would classify LO as touchy or grumpy.  She is almost an angel after her first nap, but don't cross her in the early morning or the afternoon! She has really cut back on the crying at naptimes over the past few days, but she simply hates the big bedtime putdown.  Last night DW tried for 45 minutes to settle her (keeping her from just kicking and kicking is quite a chore), and I intervened because DW "hit the wall" from fatigue; it took me another 15 mins (and 3 PU/PD) before the hysterics ceased.  Interestingly, it was after a bath, which was my original concern in the post (it seems not to help her settle).
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Offline GG

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E.A.S.Y. but CRYING -- inadequate ritual?
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2005, 04:23:09 am »
I think she's at an age where she may take to a beloved object, like a blanket or favorite toy.  Try to encourage it to see if it makes a difference.  Also, it definitely couldn't hurt for you to change the time of her bath.  Don't even make it immediately before a nap.  Change it to one of the other A's.  Always go with your instinct... you may be on to something in terms of the bath.

Did you try adding an extra nap before her bedtime yet?  That really will make a difference!
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Georgia, mom to 3 sweet babes: touchy Foti, spirited Lena & not-so-tiny Joanna



Offline palaeologus

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E.A.S.Y. but CRYING -- inadequate ritual?
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2005, 21:22:22 pm »
Well, DW unfortunately hasn't managed to add a catnap yet because LO's been skewing later with her afternoon naps because of crying (closer to 1:30 p.m., and she has been going down for 2 hours).  DW believes that trying to get a catnap out of LO under those circumstances risks another nap fight for a small benefit.  We have dropped the bath from the late-afternoon activity period, and I have placed an order for two Snoedel dolls (never hurts to have a spare).  Right now, a Dilly Duckling doll is all that she has with her in the crib ("Stop that feather!").
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Offline GG

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E.A.S.Y. but CRYING -- inadequate ritual?
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2005, 22:26:26 pm »
Another fight is a minor thing.  Seriously, even if she fights it, she really needs it.  Plus, she'll get used to it since she hasn't had it as part of her daily ritual.  As I type, my little guy is in his crib, complaining about having to take a nap.  He does this for every single nap (I HATE naptime for this reason) but I have to do it because he's so much worse if he doesn't get it.  He could stay awake for an extra hour if we let him but then it would take us over an hour to calm him down for his bedtime!!
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Offline GG

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E.A.S.Y. but CRYING -- inadequate ritual?
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2005, 22:42:05 pm »
Or... maybe you can space out the existing naps so that it makes the day more even?  Just a couple of suggestions.

HTH!
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Offline Katet

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E.A.S.Y. but CRYING -- inadequate ritual?
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2005, 10:48:32 am »
If you aren't keen on the power struggle of an extra nap have you tried taking your lo was a walk/drive in the car at the same time as you would give the catnap. i found when I hated nap time when ds #1 was that age & it was a big struggle, I used to substitute a walk, even if ds didn't fall asleep it did calm him  give him down time. That was also something one of the Baby health nurses suggested to me. It's also great for Mum as she gets out of the house, gets some excercise & fresh air... every one wins!!!
With my ds #2 he has a nap in the pram almost every day when I take #1 to the park, or we walk to the shops or we are out with friends & it doesn't upset how he settles for other naps or night time, they learn the difference.
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Offline palaeologus

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E.A.S.Y. but CRYING -- inadequate ritual?
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2005, 16:41:04 pm »
A bit of progress to report on the nap front: I put LO down and left her with a cheerful "goodnight" this morning, rather than intervening to keep her from flailing her legs as DW or I normally do, and she managed to calm herself and get to sleep within 10 minutes with a minimum of crying.  The light at the end of the tunnel?  We'll see at the afternoon nap, perhaps.

DW has been putting LO in a baby sling or in a car carrier for a late-afternoon walk or drive on occasions when she wakes early from an afternoon nap.  So it seems that DW has hit upon that strategy, and it does appear to work for them on occasion.  (Is it a prop?  Yes, but it's not a regular one, I guess.)

As I have mentioned, I have a feeling I'll be vetoed on the catnap (that's DW's shift), but I do wonder if the absence of a catnap may be making LO more sleepy during her first EA period (my shift) upon waking in the morning.  She can barely make it from 7:00 to 8:30 some mornings.  If so, it would make a strong point stronger.
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