Is 6.20am still a night-waking?

[katriona]

DS has just recently started to sleep for verrrrry long stretches at night. We put him down between 6.45pm and 7pm, and for the past three nights (ssssshhh!) he’s slept till 6.20am without waking for a feed. He’s happy when he wakes at this time, but I’m reluctant to get him up before 7am because a) I don’t want him waking earlier and earlier in anticipation of fun time with Mom (which has been a consistent pattern; I've had to set myself limits!). b) he gets so overtired with his bad daytime napping that I really think he needs 12-13 hours of sleep at night. He’s much happier if he sleeps past 7am.

So I’ve been treating the 6.20am as a "night-waking," resettling him, and he’s gone back to sleep till 7am on two occasions and 7.30am yesterday. The thing is that my resettling involves b/f, as I don’t want to put him back down after going 12 hours without a feed! Yet if I do this I’m worried that a) It throws off my AEASY routine, as that includes feedings at 7.15am, 11.15am, 3.15pm, 5.15pm and 6.45pm. and b) it reinforces feeding before (not to) sleep, which is a habit it took a long time to break him of.

I guess the main thing is my fear that my DS will starve to death if I try to resettle him without a feed after going the whole night without. He’ll happily take one side at 6.20am and the other side at 7.15am when he wakes up again. Do I just need to get over it, and let him go back to sleep by himself and wait to feed till 7.15am? I guess I do, because I wouldn’t be waking him up to feed at 6.20am if he were still sound asleep – I’d be letting him sleep through!

Anyway, your thoughts would be appreciated. I just can’t stand to have him awake and thinking that he might be hungry! I’m sure he’d let me know though, right?

TIA!

Mrs. B.



How old is your child?
6.5 months

What’s his/her daily routine?
Awake 7am, bed 7pm. AEASY due to short naps and short "A" time. (Eats every four hours)

What’s nap routine?
Diaper change, into gro-bag, drapes closed, lights out, 3 verses of Twinkle Twinkle, into hammock.

How long are naps?
38-45 minutes

What's bedtime routine?
Walk in the park, Bath, Massage, Jammies, Book, b/f, Kisses, Into hammock

Time?
6.15pm-7pm

Do you bottle or breastfed??
Breastfeed

How much? or how long?
10-12 mins every four hours (5-6 mins per side)

If breastfed.. one side or both?? (at each feed)
Both

How many wakes per night?
At the moment, one at 6.20am.

What’s your LO like when waking at night? How long is he/she up?
Burbles and coos. Goes back to sleep after feed.

When you go to him/her is she fussing or crying? Or is it a mantra cry?
Not fussing.

What have you tried to settle??
Not sure what this means.

What do you do for A time and how long is it?
Ranges from 1hr 20 first thing in the am, through 1hr 30, 2 hours, and if we’re really unlucky with our naps and too much overtiredness, 3.5 hours between last nap and bedtime.

Are there developmental issues such as teething or milestones?
Has one tooth, but is not in teething pain atm. Generally more active, but no major milestones recently.

Have you introduced cereal? Why, how much, and how many times a day? (for LO’s under 6 months)
N/a

Do they have a prop? If so what is it?
No.

Do they have a lovie?
No; uses thumb currently.

[teezee]

i would say at that age that 11-12 hrs sleep at night is wonderful! i wouldn't treat it as a nightwaking myself -as it is morning - it just seems that he is well rested at 6:20. if he isn't crying when he first wakes i would def let him talk/play by himself and maybe that way it can be stretched out til closer to 7. could you post your routine in detail so i could take a quick look?

[teezee]

this is the average sleep hrs for a 6 months old:
Night: 12 hours;
Day: 2.25 hours - 2 naps, 1 of 1 hour and 1 of 1.25 hours;
Total: 14.5 hours

so depending on lo's naps - how long they are - he may be getting enough sleep throughout the day/night - this is just a guide - if lo is getting more like 3.5 hrs day sleep and only 11 at night - he is still getting enough sleeping hrs kwim??

[katriona]

i would say at that age that 11-12 hrs sleep at night is wonderful!

i can hardly believe it myself. i'm sure that just as soon as i get used to it (and a later bedtime for me!) it will all change 

i wouldn't treat it as a nightwaking myself -as it is morning - it just seems that he is well rested at 6:20.

my BIG concern about treating 6.20am as his get up time is that his get up times have been getting earlier and earlier. we settled on a 7pm bedtime back around Christmas, but because of his overtiredness during the day, it's often difficult to stretch him to this point. as such, his bedtime has crept forward and forward, and his awake time has gotten earlier and earlier too. the 7pm bedtime at Christmas is now 6.30pm-7pm, but this is daylight savings, so really it's come forward 90 minutes to 5.30pm-6pm. his wake up time has similarly shifted from 7am to 5.20am (6.20am DST). i'm just grateful that the clocks went forward and not back, as we've bought ourselves an hour!

it's a vicious circle unfortunately, and until we can extend his naps (which we've been trying to no avail), and he has more rest during the day, i don't think we're going to be able to halt bedtime's march forward, and the corresponding earlier awake time. thankfully we have the rest of the summer to get him straightened out and delay bedtime bit by bit until the clocks go back again!

if he isn't crying when he first wakes i would def let him talk/play by himself and maybe that way it can be stretched out til closer to 7.

this would stretch out the feed closer to 7am (and then it's not too much of a stretch till 11.15am), but i still have the sleep concerns. this morning he was crying, however, so i thought that he was either hungry or hadn't yet had enough sleep, or both. he did eat, and went back to sleep for a little while.

could you post your routine in detail so i could take a quick look?

i'm afraid that ds isn't predictable enough to have a timed routine. it's generally up at 7am, and from that point on setting the timer for 1.5 hours or till sleepy cues come, at which point we wind-down and he receives a visit from the 45-minute monster  feed-wise he's fed at 7.15am (solids at 8am), 11.15am (solids at 12pm), 3.15pm, 5.15pm and 6.45pm. we're stretching his "a" time to 1.5 hours, and this can mean 4 or 5 naps during the day depending on how long his naps are (sometimes we get lucky) and how overtired he gets (all the cortisol and adrenaline by the end of the day sometimes means that he can't take a final nap and ends up being awake for 3 hours plus)

if it would be helpful to you i'll keep track of things for a day or so and post a more exact summary?

thanks so much for replying!

mrs. b.

[teezee]

you may need to extend A time so naps can also be longer. maybe lo isn't tired enough to sleep for longer periods? what are his A times generally like in length...and overtiredness will def play a part in early wake ups.

ok i just saw that your lo has 4 or 5 naps in a given day - that is no good at all. if lo is on a 4 hr routine than the most lo should be getting is 3 naps, and between 6-8months lo's drop that one also..it seems he would be around the age. i understand lo is getting overtired but instead of opting for additional naps (maybe still 3 now but def not as many as he has been getting..) you should def opt for an earlier bedtime imho...even an hr to an hr and a half earlier just for a few days...and when i have done this with my dd it really didn't affect her wake up time at all, the first two days she actually slept better, the next couple were a half hr earlier than usual as she was by that point caught up on her sleep.

if you could jot things down 'a day in the life of Theron Michael'  would be very helpful.

[katriona]

Thanks, Tawnya,

Believe me, I know that 5 naps a day is not good at his age, but its just so pitiful to see him so overtired that I can't bear to "stretch him" further. Perhaps you're right... Perhaps he's just too overtired to even nap at this stage, and I know that it's a struggle to reach bedtime every night, so I'm fully expecting that he's waking early because he's overtired.

OK, I'll keep a log today and perhaps you'd be kind enough to give me your thoughts later. I really need to get this sorted out, just don't know how!

Many thanks,

Mrs. B.

[katriona]

Thanks, Stacy -- I know it's incredibly short and that most 6 mos old (and he's only a few days shy of 7 mos) can go perhaps twice as long. I had wondered if I were misreading his cues, if maybe his yawns were boredom, or if perhaps he'd get a second wind if we went past that, but I'm afraid that I can't mistake the frantic eye-rubbing, ear-tugging, rubbing his face in my shoulder, tears, and above all, the gratefulness with which he seems to be laid in his hammock (plus the rapidity with which he falls asleep).

 

I remember reading in Weissbluth that overtired babies can be too tired to nap properly, and that a significantly earlier bedtime for a few days can lengthen naps of their own accord. I certainly think that Theron "crashes" into most of his naps, rather than drifts, and wonder if he's sleeping too deeply at first, then coming out of it too soon, rather than going in and out of light and deep sleep. Kind of like a mini-version of being overtired at night and waking too early in the morning, kwim?

I do appreciate all your advice, and really hope that we can sort things out for my little guy. Maybe he's just a late sleep developer. He's just started sleeping through the night (last night was night #4), so perhaps now he'll start thinking about his daytime sleep 

Thanks,

Mrs. B.

[teezee]

well hun i would def start extending that A time a little bit at a time b/c lo is used to going to sleep at that time and that's why he 'feels' tired then kwim? if he is not tired enough he won't sleep deeply at the 'end' of the nap in order to lengthen them and thus could be overtired b/c of it.

congrats - on the sleeping through the night though - that is an amazing accomplishment in itself!

[katriona]

thanks, ladies. here's the first step. i'm going to do everything by his natural rhythms today so that i get a clear picture of what we're facing. i'm going to follow his sleepy cues, and not try to extend any of his naps. i'll see what patterns emerge, and perhaps we could devise an action plan?

thanks so much!

[teezee]

good luck and keep us updated!

[katriona]

Hi Tawnya and Stacy,

Good morning to you both. Do you feel like a challenge? My goodness, I didn't realize how bad things were till I actually sat down and logged things minute by minute. I hope to become one of those BW success stories; it certainly can't get much worse than this. I'm going to keep a log today as well, to see if there are any comparable patterns.

Let me preface this log with a few things:

1. I had no idea that DS' naps were so short till I sat and watched him fall asleep, then crept in early and watch him wake. He spends a lot of time awake but quiet in his hammock before deciding that he wants to call for mom.

2. This day is pretty typical, but unusual in one respect: normally its the 5th nap that bombs and he winds up being up for several hours between his last nap and bedtime. Yesterday it was the 4th nap that bombed spectacularly, but he did take a 5th one.

3. Even with such a short window between his last nap and bedtime, he seemed incredibly over-excited to me at bedtime, as if he'd been up for several hours and was running on fumes anyway. Cumulative overtiredness?

4. You might want to know about our activity time: when we're able to predict that DS might be tired in 1.5 hours or so, we focus the mental activity in the first half of A time, the physical activity in the middle, then an outside walk, quiet A time and wind-down routine in the last part. The quiet A time is what gets extended till I see his sleepy signs and then it's routine time.

5. I've not done the usual brief EASY log as I think its important to go minute by minute so that you have the exact picture, considering his situation is not that usual.

6. If you feel this is more of a naps issue now than a night-waking one, please feel free to bump this post over to naps. I'd still really, really appreciate both of your sage advice however.

Thanks so much for taking a look! Please let me know if you have any questions.

Mrs. B.

7.00pm-6.40am Asleep (11 hours, 40 minutes. no night-wakings)

6.40am awake
7.00am b/f
7.30am solids
7.45am quieter A time
7.50am tired signs (fussy, crabby)
8.03am in hammock
8.09am asleep (after 1.5 hours of awake time. no protest.)
8.09am-8.46am nap #1 (only 37 minutes of nap! Yikes.)

8.46am awake
9.50am a little crabby
10.00 quieter A time
10.20am yawn
10.23 in hammock
10.30am asleep (after 1 hour 45 mins of awake time. no protest.)
10.30am-11.03am nap #2 (only 33 minutes of nap! Yikes x2.)

11.03am awake
11.15am b/f
12.00pm solids
12.30 quieter A time
1.15pm in hammock (no sleepy signs, but it had been 2 1/4 hours. went down without a protest.)
1.20pm asleep (after 2 hours 17 minutes of awake time)
1.20pm-2.04pm nap #3  (44 minutes)

2.04pm awake
3.15pm b/f
3.33pm Dr. Jekyll, overtired (gave no indication of sleepy signs till furiously rubbing his eyes all of a sudden. vehemently protested being put down for nap)
3.35pm asleep (after 1.5 hours of awake time)
3.35pm-3.45pm nap #4 (10 minutes)

3.45pm bolt wide awake, would not be resettled
4.30pm quieter A time
4.45pm yawn
4.55pm in hammock
5.00pm asleep (after 1 hours 15 minutes of awake time. did not protest.)
5.00pm – 5.35pm nap #5 (35 minutes)

5.35pm awake
6.20pm bath
6.30pm routine (incredibly punchy; kicking, squealing, jerky movements, uncoordinated)
6.45pm b/f
6.55pm in hammock
7.00pm asleep (after 1 hour 25 minutes of awake time. did not protest.)

7.00pm-6.35am asleep (11 hours 35 mins, no night-wakings.)

[teezee]

i do believe that being overtired over a period of time will definately affect lo throughout the day every day until it is fixed and caught up...even if lo doesn't seem tired for an early bedtime - do it!! you may really be surprised at how well he will sleep!

i also think lo is not napping longer b/c he is just not tired enough at the time you are putting him down to sleep through a whole reg nap kwim? he is i am pretty sure showing tired signs at these times b/c he is used to going to bed at that time -which as i had mentioned before you may want to extend even 15 min or so every day or two until you extend it long enough for him to have decent naps. lo is not going to get rid of all of these extra naps (unless he's had enough rest and still not all of them will naturally disappear at this point...) b/c he is not getting enough sleep in the morning due to not being tired enough and thus making him a half hr napper. it does seem like lo is getting enough sleep just not all at once so it is not as restful as say 2 or 3 naps would be as he really isn't getting past the first sleep cycle. as i said before - slowly start extending A times with low key activity..and get on with an easy or aeasy whatever will work for your situation. but for every sleep time there should be an eating time right after (or shortly after which would be aeasy kwim?).

don't know if your lo is spirited or touchy at all but i know that right before a sleep period i cannot and i repeat cannot take my lo out for a walk! her spirited little self gets wwwaaayyyy too stimulated with everything to look at...

btw - congrats on the no night wakings!!!! wooo hoooo !! great accomplishment - give yourself a pat ont he back and lo a big hug!!...6:40 is better than 6:20!!!

if i can be of anymore assistance please let me know! as far as for now that is the best course of action i see - maybe stacy will have some more ideas for you. {{{{{{{{{{HUGS}}}}}}}}}} it won't happen over night and will be a lengthy process for lo to slowly adapt but you have to go slow as lo is used to things being this way, although is not happier for it sleep wise, it will improve with time and consistancy.

[katriona]

Thank you for your advice, ladies. I need to find five minutes to myself (and a cup of tea!) to sit down and digest it.

I so wanted to be able to come on today and tell you that the day I logged was a fluke. Especially as DS unexpectedly took a 1 hour 20 mins nap yesterday morning for nap #1. However, things followed the same pattern.

But! Today! I moved his bathtime towards the end of his first A time and added a walk outside beforehand. Whaddya know. He was up at 6.30am and didn't yawn till 8.15am. 1hr 45!! He was in his hammock by 8.22am and asleep by 8.25am. Almost 2 hours  We'll wait and see what (if any!) effect this has on nap #1.

I'm sure I'll have a couple of queries, so please bear with me while I work through this. 

Thanks so much!

Mrs. B.

[teezee]

ohh congrats on the progress so far and please do keep us updated!

[katriona]

Ladies,

I just wanted to stop by and give you a quick update. For the past four days I've been working my little guy on staying up longer. Today we hit the 2 hour mark for every A time, aside from first thing this morning which was 1 hr 45 mins (but it was a rough night and an early awakening). Thank goodness it's sunny and we can sit outside with him on a quilt or in his walker. He burbles and coos to himself, and I think all the new things to look at stave off the sleepies.

Stacy, you'll be pleased to hear that naps have improved somewhat too -- for the past three days his first nap (after 2 hours A time) has been about 1hr 20 mins. So I reckon he's getting two of his usual sleep cycles in there.

And for the past two days there have only been four naps, not five.

I know, I know, this is still not good for a six month old, but baby steps! Yikes, he's SEVEN months old tomorrow.

Unfortunately the past two nights have also seen wakings where for the previous week we'd had none. Boy, how quickly did I get used to sleeping through! I feel like a jetlagged zombie today, and DH daren't stick his head in for fear of it being bitten off. I managed to settle him on both occasions, but he woke up 20 minutes later, and took a full feed when I did feed him.

I know that some sleep training will be required to extend naps and possibly his morning wakening (today was 6am,  ) but what with extending his A time, and transitioning him from his hammock to a crib just as soon as I can figure out how to screw it together (hopefully tomorrow!), I want to kind of see how bad things get before I formulate an action plan, kwim?

Would one of you mind pointing me to the ideal EASY for a seven-month-old? That would give me some goals to work towards, and who knows, maybe if we hit the A time that is right for him, his naps may lengthen of their own accord.

Thank you so much for your advice so far! Who'da thunk that DS had it in him. AP comes in all forms! I just need to let him grow up I guess 

Katy