is baby whisperper only for bottle fed babies?

[wonderma]

My 6 month old has been on BW since birth. He has been on the 4 hour easy since 16 weeks. Now I have a low supply of breast milk. I used to feed on only one side, but since we've been having trouble switched to both sides. The problem is the lactation consultant wants me to feed every 2 hours and on both sides. She said that only stimulating the breast every 8 hours is not enough.  But my son thrives on the 4 hour easy, and so do I. I am so committed to the BW and the 4 hour EASY and it seems to work well for us. My lo has 2 two hour naps and sleeps 12 hours at night. We have fun when he is awake , he is so active and smiley. But baby's weight gain has slowed and as he dropped from the 50th to the 10th percentile, I'm not so sure any more. We have started some solid foods and he is a great eater. I thought maybe I could just offer the breast before he goes down for his nap. Seems like I'll always be feeding him. Just when you think you have it down, everything changes. HELP! Are there any breast feeding experts out there familiar with the Baby Whisperer???

Current Routine:
7am breast feed
8am cereal and fruit
9-11am nap
11am breast feed
12pm solids *
1-3pm nap
3pm breast feed
330pm solids*
5-6pm catnap in stroller, usually sleeps 30 minutes.
6pm solids
630pm bath
7pm breast feed and bed
1030 dreamfeed

*sometimes I only offer food at 12 OR 3pm, not both

Proposed new schedule to increase supply:
7am breast feed
8am cereal and fruit
845am breast feed
9-11am nap
11am breast feed
12pm solids *
1245pm breast feed
1-3pm nap
3pm breast feed
330pm solids*
445pm breast feed
5-6pm catnap in stroller, usually sleeps 30 minutes.
6pm solids
630pm bath
7pm breast feed and bed
1030 dreamfeed

What does that look like? That seems like an awful of "food" time and no time for fun, for mommy or baby.

[RachelC]

Is he *asking* for more food?  Does he seem hungry?  I would offer what he needs at the 4 hr EASY (both breasts if needed) and leave it at that.  Is your ped going off the new charts for bf babies?

I think you need to go with your Mommy instincts and do what seems right for you and ds.

[Nikki~Nathanamp;Danielle]

I BF both my children, but found at around 3mths I needed to switch from single side feeding to offering both sides to keep my supply up. I would tend to following the LC's advice to rebuild your supply, and then see if you can get back to 4hrly feeding both offering both sides and see how you go.

[Johno & Aurelias Mum]

I remember seeing a program Tracy did where she suggested pumping in between feeds, I don't know if that would help.

[Carter'sMama]

I think the schedule you have now looks just about right for your lo's age.  I also had to start feeding from both sides at 6 months of age where I was single side feeding before.  Like was already said "does he seem full", "does he want more food".  If he seems content then I would assume you are making enough milk.  Has he had his 6 month growth spurt yet?

I ended up trying Fenugreek (herbal supplement) when Carter was around 6 months and it helped immensely to increase my milk supply.  Pumping is a good option as well although I had a hard time finding time to do it!

Let us know what you decide to do! 

[Samuel's mum]

Is he *asking* for more food?  Does he seem hungry?  I would offer what he needs at the 4 hr EASY (both breasts if needed) and leave it at that.  Is your ped going off the new charts for bf babies?

I think you need to go with your Mommy instincts and do what seems right for you and ds.

I would agree with this!!

Don't forget that weight charts are often not designed around breastfed babies (unless you are using the new WHO ones which are on the FAQ board). Traditionally, weight gain does slow down for breastfed babies after around 3-4 months of age compared to formula fed babies. By around 2 yrs the weight gain is again similar. As a rough guide you are aiming to double birth weight by around 6 months and triple by around a year.

This

I am so committed to the BW and the 4 hour EASY and it seems to work well for us. My lo has 2 two hour naps and sleeps 12 hours at night. We have fun when he is awake , he is so active and smiley.

is more important

than this:

But baby's weight gain has slowed and as he dropped from the 50th to the 10th percentile,

Don't forget that solids are almost always lower in calories than breastmilk. If you feel he is taking less milk then consider cutting back the solids.

If your fears about weight gain are your only reasons for thinking about the new schedule then I would really caution you. You could be heading down the road of a nursing/sleep association which will be difficult to break. If you have concerns about supply then I would suggest thinking about extra stimulation of your breasts by pumping as suggested. I guess a lot depends on why you feel you have low supply and what the 'trouble' you mention has been. The LC you've spoken to may have information we don't have and genuinely be concerned about your supply - I'm hoping she's not just basing it on weight gain.

Why do you feel you have low supply issues?

[wonderma]

You are all so helpful...it's just nice to know that there is someone to listen to me!

Now to answer all your questions:

Does he seem hungry?
-No. He seems satisfied with feeding. The only time I wonder is at the 7pm feed before bed, he fusses quite a bit. Turns out most of the time if I lay him in the crib, he just goes to sleep, so then I think he must have been done feeding and was ready for bed.
-he often sleeps longer than 2 hours in the day, he doesn't wake up for a feed early. He usually can wait a bit to have his feed, all though I usually don't need to make him wait
-he'll sometimes get up at 6am instead of 7am, he is really hungry then, so I feed him in bed and we laze around til 7am. Then I give him solids and he goes down earlier than 9am for his nap.

Neither the pediatrician or BF clinic is using the new WHO BF growth charts

I thought about feeding before the nap for a few days to build the supply, then stopping? I don't know. He is so used to EASY that he rarely falls asleep during feeding, cuz he knows activity is next. I could make sure he is awake when I lay him down for the nap.


I had been pumping right away after feeding for 10 minutes (I have a dually pump). I would get maybe an ounce each time.I think it did help, I did it for 2 weeks then stopped. It is so frustrating, time consuming, I hate not getting much. Even though I know I shouldn't get much pumping after BFing.

I have always had a hard time reading his cues, thats why I like EASY so much. I just do what is next on the routine! It is so hard to tell what his hungry signals are as I find they put everything in their mouth at this age. The only time I can really tell is first thing in the morning, cuz he turns his head from side to side and smacks his lips.

Here are a few of his weights. I tired not to be concerned about it b/c he is a happy baby that sleeps well, is active and healthy looking (thigh rolls, Buddha tummy, nice skin, bright eyes).

Feb 2/06 Birth 8lbs 10oz
April 7 12lbs 2oz
April 13 12lbs 12oz
May 19 13lbs 4oz
May 26 13lbs 8oz
June 5 14lb 2oz
July 11 14 lbs 5oz * this is when i got worried
July 17 14lbs 11.5 oz
July 24 15lbs 2 oz
July 31 15lb 10oz (also grew 3/4 of an inch in length)
Aug 8 16lb 7.5 oz (I'm pretty sure this is the growth spurt)

So as you can see things slowed down for May to July. In July when I got worried this is what I did: went off the pill (micronor), started feeding on both sides, I gave a bit of formula for 2 days then stopped, I pumped for 10min after feeds 2-3x per day for 2 weeks. I started taking fenugreek and blessed thistle. I made an appt at the breast feeding clinic and I just got in tooday. I also started solid foods, he was almost 24 weeks then anyways.

I am 5'1" and 130 lbs (prepregnancy) I am about 135-138lb right now. Hubby is 5'10" and 185lbs. We are both very active. In fact I take a strollercise class twice a week (it's pretty hard-cardio and weights) and run maybe twice a week. Everynight we go out for a walk or bike ride from 5-6pm with the stroler and Cameron has his cat nap then if he wants it. do you think the exercise could affect supply? I find it really helps my mental health to get out.

I feel I have low supply issues because of:
- that slowed weight gain, although there is many things that can explain it (breast fed baby, genetics, I had a lot of fluid on during pregnancy which could have made his birth weight higher, not sure what else)
-he is fussy at the breast diving in, then pulling back and twisting his head, he often clamps down
-I never leaked or felt engorged (although I hear this is normal, the LC thought it was a 'red flag')
-I have trouble pumping more than 2oz from each breast even when I have missed a feed
-the biggest worry is that I find he now sucks around 6 times to every swallow
-also another big worry is constipation (he is on solids now). It is true constitpation (very hard small stools, like pellets) he red face grunts and pushes for half and hour and then cries when he it passes, we had to give a suppository last week...it was awful.  But it helped. The doc recommended we do that as there had been some blood on the wipe after 2 of the BM.  I have introduced prunes  and it has made things a bit softer. I worry that he is not getting enough fluid from my breast milk. When he was exclusively breastfeed he went only every 7-9 days, but they weren't hard to pass and I wasn't concerned. Now he has these hard stools once or twice per day. I don't know...maybe it's not constipation then.

So I think that is the full story. I really do not want to feed every 2 hours. The LC wants me to go on mottillium too. I get so much conflicting information. I really try to just look at Cameron and not worry. But, I am a first time mom and I find worry is what I do best!! I do appreciate the advice from the BW site as I find it the most practical and considers every angle of babies life, sleep, eating, and time for me. I really think it would be regressing to go back to feeding every 2 hours. But the LC says stimulation, especailly from baby, is the only way to increase supply. But what if my supply is low and just right for Cameron. He sure doesn't complain much.

Thanks for listening.....

[Carter'sMama]

I also had a hard time pumping!  I would pump first thing in the morning after a whole night of no feeds and only get 4-5 oz from both breasts combined!  I woudln't take the amount you are pumping as a judge of your milk supply.  Even though I couldn't pump I went on to bf until 13 months and I had a big eater    I also never had the full feeling or the leaking/engorgement after Carter was 5-6 months.  Your body just gets used to your baby and produces what you need.

It sounds like you are doing a great job!  Keep it up!  Feel free to ask us anything you like!

P.S  My guy was born at 8lbs 13 oz and by 3.5 months (born Mar 29) on July 11 he was 13lbs 12 oz .. very similar to your guy!  I can't find any other weights right now for comparison but I will look for you! 

[clh]

What you're doing sounds great! 

First, to give you some points of reference, my DS was 8 lb, 10 oz at birth & 16 lb, 2 oz at 6 months.  That's spot on what your DS has done & my ped wasn't worried at all.  I don't have as many data points as you do regarding weight, but growth rate definitely slowed for my DS around 3 months.

Secondly, pumping doesn't indicate supply.  Your DS is much more efficient at getting milk from you than the pump is (even the good dual electric ones).  I get 2-ish oz total from a pumping session, & that is when I have not just fed him.  Regarding leaking/engorgement...  I have rarely leaked or felt engorged, and DS & I are coming up on a year of breastfeeding (no formula).  So that hasn't indicated supply either.

Like you, I loved EASY in that I just went to the next thing on the list.  So...  well...  easy!

The LC is right that increased stimulation from your DS is the best way to up your supply.  How/when to get that stimulation is harder.  Are you sure he needs it?  Have you checked his weights that you listed on the WHO charts & see what they say about percentiles?  I'll see if I can find something, too. 

Best of luck, & keep up the good work!

edited to add: 
You may want to check these WHO charts.  I don't know what the "z-scores" are, but there are other charts with the percentiles, too.  http://www.who.int/childgrowth/standards/weight_for_age/en/index.html

[wonderma]

Thanks for all the advice. I'd love to share these posts with the LC. You guys did a far better assessment than she did! So I think my plans may be to drink more water and eat better. And instead of feeding him before his naps, I'll 'try' and pump once he goes down for his nap. Even if baby is better stimulation, it should help a bit. Although he has just gone down for his nap now and I have far better things to do than pump. I hate it. But I do love breast feeding so I'll try my best.

[clh]

I can sympathize with the hating of the pump.  I do, too.  But since I work full time, it's the only way I know to keep my supply enough to breastfeed when I'm with DS.  So I plod along during the day & relish the morning & just-before-bed nursings!   

[CaedensMama]

Are you single side feeding? I would try switching to both sides and see if that helps supply and gets a little more into him at each feed. If he seems content and happy, I would say he is getting enough and is satisfied. And his weight gain looks very normal to me and I wouldn't be concerned. My ped always told me as long as there was gain and not loss, it was fine and he would gan more sometimes and not others. We only go in every 3 months though.

All that said-  we did end up nursing just before naps for awhile to help him get thru naps better. The naps were short and he was waking hungry. So - we did something along the lines of your proposed routine from maybe 5-6 months till just before a year. I have dropped the before nap feeds now, but it was hard to do, so if your LO seems happy with the 4 hour easy now - I would leave it alone and not create more work for yourself later. If he needs it, it will work, but it doesn't really sound to me like he does.

Also - I always noticed a drop in milk just before my period would start - not big but a little. If you haven't had a period yet, it could be your body working on getting back into that.

Your body will produce what milk your baby is taking from the feeds and if you add or subtract feeds it will adjust within about 24-48 hours, so if you add feeds to get the supply up and then stop, they increase will stop too.

I think at this point if he and you are happy with the 4 hour - I would continue there and offer both breasts at each feed. If he won't take the 2nd one right away, offer it 15 minutes later and count it all as the same feed. he may need to let some milk settle before wanting more. I think this is best way to increase your supply and not mess up the routine that's working for you guys!

Keep us posted on how you are doing!

[wonderma]

I've been feeding on both sides for almost a month, it has helped a bit. I think. I was thinking, isn't BFing just all supply and demand. So whether I feed him every 2 hours and he takes a little or every 4 hours and he takes a lot. What is the difference? Won't my body just adjust to what I'm doing with baby? And what he takes. I'm worried if I feed him every 2 hours he'll just be snacking all day long. The LC said that there isn't enough in there for him to take 'more' after 4 hours, that he has to take little bits more often. She wasn't really referring to 'me' just saying that in general for all BF babies.

He has good naps and doesn't wake up super hungry. Even if he wakes early we wait until 4 hours time.

I have not had a period yet. Even when I went off the pill I didn't have a withdrawl bleed. I thought that was a good sign that my hormone levels were still up there.

Any thoughts on my amount of exercise?

My hubby thinks I'm worry for nothing, and that Cameron and I are doing fine and not to fix what isn't broken. I half-heartedly agree. But I'm just wrroied about those issues I mentioned in an earlier post.

[lisi's mum]

Just to reassure you, those charts do nothing but make mummies worry  dd is almost 10mo and weighs 16 lb 11oz. Dr isn't at all worried. At 6 weeks she was on the 75% line, now she's around 10%. Ped says as long as she doesn't seem hungry you shouldn't worry. A bf baby will take what they need and not much more.

[wonderma]

Oh, I'm so confused now. So I fed him at 5pm (not our usual routine), he was kinda fussy and sticking his hand in his mouth. So I thought what the heck? Usually I take those signals to mean "I'm tired". It was time for his catnap. But I fed him instead. Which he enjoyed. Then he wouldn't sleep. Grrr. So we just carried on, I did the bath a bit earlier. I figured we'd need an earlier bedtime given the no catnap situation.  But when I went to feed him shortly before 7pm he took next to nothing and was so tired. I think our latch was more of a yawn.  So now I don't know. What will the night bring with a terrible feed at 7pm. Hopefully the dream feed will redeem us at 1030pm!