Moving to 3.5 hr EASY – a few questions

[traineeparent]

Hi there

I haven't had much luck with the naps this week.  The feeds are pretty consistent at 7, 11, 3, 6.30pm.   I've only had 3 days with a long nap.  One day she did 3 long naps!!  2hr, 1.25, 1.5 !!! Was that too much?  She slept till 7 the next day (after cooing at 5:50am and back to sleep).

It's very hard with her waking at different times each day.

I've given her a lovie which she likes but it hasn't made a huge difference. Haven't used white noise yet. 

I'll keep you posted.

[*Mona*]

hi

I think for now try keeping your routine and let your dd get used to it. it's good thou she's eating fine for you.
about amount of sleep- I let my dd sleep as much as she wants to... sometimes she just needs more sleep and that's it. but napping too long in the afternoon before bed isn't maybe the best idea so don't let her sleep TOO long.

keep us posted

[traineeparent]

Hi there
What's often happened is if she's done short naps all day, the "catnap" at the end of the day turns into a long nap and I've had to wake her for her bath.  It feels mean waking her cos she comes out of a deep sleep and obviously needs it, but I want to get her into bed for the night at the usual time.   Is this the right approach?  So I'd wake her if still sleeping at 6pm.  e.g. went for buggy walk, fell asleep 4.45 or 5pm, wake her at 6pm.     

The other scenario is if she's done 2 long naps (1.5 - 2hrs) and then the 3rd nap is also long, say 3.30 to 5. How long is too long for that last nap?  When she wakes from the last nap at 5 it can be awkward because it's too long till bedtime.   Sometimes if I try to put her down early she's overtired and takes ages to settle anyway!! 

It doesn't feel like much of a routine since every day is different and with different start times but I'll stick to the feed times.  But I'll keep at it.  Thanks for your help.

[*Mona*]

So I'd wake her if still sleeping at 6pm.  e.g. went for buggy walk, fell asleep 4.45 or 5pm, wake her at 6pm.     

I think that's better to wake her than to let her sleep too long and have problems putting her down after.

The other scenario is if she's done 2 long naps (1.5 - 2hrs) and then the 3rd nap is also long, say 3.30 to 5. How long is too long for that last nap?  When she wakes from the last nap at 5 it can be awkward because it's too long tilll bedtime.   

3:30-5 is not too long. but if yo know from 5 til 7 is too long for her, move bedtime earlier, 6:30 or so.

It doesn't feel like much of a routine since every day is different and with different start times but I'll stick to the feed times.  But I'll keep at it. 

do keep at it. even thou to you it may seem like no routine, you're still organizing her day and that's what's important.
good luck

[traineeparent]

Thanks for that, it makes sense.    I'm seeing if the Naps mods have any suggestions regarding the naps too.  Thanks a lot for your help.

[traineeparent]

Hi there
Thought I’d give you an update.   I’m still feeding 4 hourly.  Her naps have improved a bit.  She’s doing a longer first nap – anything from 1 hr to 2 hrs but mostly 1 ¼ hr.    (Not sure how 45 min sleep cycles end up with a 1 hr nap???). The 2nd nap is always 35 mins (with one exception this week!).

I think bowel movements often wake her in the morning and early from a nap. 

So this is what it looks like most days.  She wakes usually 6- 6.30. Had a couple of 5.30ams but not for a week now.  Times vary by ½ hr or so.

Wake 6-6.30.  Go in when she whines but keep in cot till 6.45.
6.45 Get up, change nappy
E 7.00 Breastfeed
S 8.30 (Asleep 8.45. 1 ¼ - 1 ½  hr)
E 11.00 Breastfeed
E 11.45 Solids (Just started)
S 12.30 (Asleep 12.45. 35 mins)
E  3.00 Breastfeed
S  4/4.30 (Buggy or car.  35 mins)
Bath  6.00
E 6.30 Breastfeed
S 7 (Asleep by 7.45)
E DF 10.30 Breastfeed

She’s often taking a while to get to sleep at night time – 45 mins. Overtired or overstimulated I think. It’s definitely an improvement though – not getting the evening wakeups.  I think it’s all due to not good enough naps…..  She's getting about 10.5 hrs sleep at night and 2.5 hrs of naps.

Next week I’m going to try WTS where you hold her at the jolts. I tried it once and seems quite good. Better than shushing back after she wakes. 

It’s hard to know what to do if she wakes from 2nd nap by 1.30.  By the time I feed at 3 it’s 4 by the time she’s asleep, usually more like 4.30.  Then awake at 5.  She almost needs 2 naps in that time….

Any suggestions?   

[*Mona*]

hi

good thinks look a bit better there for you.
 great she's having her first nap longer, that's really important. but I'm not sure what to suggest re later naps- 35min or so  naps are, hmm..., not long enough, right? many BWers say if a nap is 45 min and baby wakes up happy, it means not enough activity before, if it's shorter, it may also be due to being overtired. Your Dd is having a nice long nap in the morning after some 2 hrs of A time, right? and 35min naps after way over 2 hrs of activity [from 10 to 12:30/12:45 -taken from your routine] SO she can definitely be much too overtired for a proper nap! at some 5 months I don't think she's ready for 2,5hrs of activity. maybe if you could try to put her down for a nap earlier, say 12 at latest, it would help her nap longer? but then you would also have to move your solids meal a bit back.
the same about her third nap- from 13:30 to 16/16:30 it's much to long for her to nap well after.

so maybe before you go for W2S method, try adjusting her activity and nap hours a bit.
what do you think?

Monika

[traineeparent]

Hi there

Thanks for your help.   DD is now 6.5 months - time has flown since starting this topic!     What would the ideal A time be for her now?  Does that change what you think about shortening the 2nd A time?

Yes her first nap is after about 2 - 2 ¼ hrs A time depending on when she woke.  I’m trying to keep the nap time roughly the same since I think that helps.    (I also wondered if putting her down too early for the first nap encourages the early waking? I read that somewhere on the BW website.   For a couple of days she woke at 5.30 but not since thankfully.  I tried keeping her up to 9am after waking at 6 but that seemed to backfire and she did a short nap.  So now I’m keeping it at 8.30/45).

For the 2nd nap I try to get her down as soon as I see tired signs.  She really needs 4 naps but it’s very difficult.  It’s 4pm by the time she goes down for the 3rd nap after the feed and then she’s not tired enough to have another nap before bedtime.  Then I have an overtired baby, almost every night. Not screaming, but still hard to settle.   It's very very frustrating!  I'll try moving the 2nd nap forward as you suggest.

Yes I’ve read on this website that a 45 min is undertired whereas a 30 min nap is overtired. Wasn’t sure if it was true.  In that case she’s been overtired for weeks!!   3 months ago her naps were 45 mins, lately they’ve become 35 min naps. Or sometimes 40 mins.  It’s hard to know exactly when she falls asleep since I’m not in the room.  If she wakes happy (usually the case for 1st or 2nd nap) then I get her up. If she’s crying then I shush her back to sleep.

I wonder whether to just move all the feed times earlier, say start at 6.30, then 10.30, 2,30, 6.00.  Then feed time would be after she got up and she wouldn’t be tired for her feeds - she’s often tired for the solids and 3pm feed.  I’m just hoping she’ll eventaully get back to 7am wake up but maybe I should forget about that for now   

I remember you said your DD wakes at 6.30 but occasionally sleeps till 7.30.  How long do you let her sleep before waking her in the morning?  I used to always wake DD at 7, unless she’d had a 6am feed then might let her sleep till 7.30 (doesn’t happen now).

Had a dreadful night last night, she kept waking up, not a hunger cry.   Fed her at 9.30 (early DF).  Shush-patted her back to sleep at 11.30 and 1am.  Then at 2.30 I tried the same but she kept jolting awake, I was nearly there 3 times. Ended up feeding her at 5am!!!  She hasn't got a cold.  I don’t think it was teething, she didn’t bite down on the teething ring I gave her. Perhaps I ate too much chocolate yesterday and it got in my milk, making her wakeful??  Bad mummy, won't be doing that again!     She only does this wake-up thing very rarely - usually after an overstimulating day eg.  Christmas Day.  (I didn't think yesterday was anything unusual).  And back to normal the next night.  Here’s hoping! 

I think the root of the problem is the lousy naps.... good daytime sleep leads to good night-time sleep and good settling at night, so it says in the BW book.  Just how to get there!!        

Thanks for your help.

[*Mona*]

Hi there

Thanks for your help.   DD is now 6.5 months - time has flown since starting this topic!     What would the ideal A time be for her now?  Does that change what you think about shortening the 2nd A time?

lol, time flies! well yes, at 6,5 mos 2,5hrs seems ok. but it does not always for for all babies. some are just not ready for longer A time as soon as others. still I think she is just overtired with all those 35 minute naps and I would try putting her down earlier to see if it helps.

Yes her first nap is after about 2 - 2 ¼ hrs A time depending on when she woke.  I’m trying to keep the nap time roughly the same since I think that helps.    (I also wondered if putting her down too early for the first nap encourages the early waking? I read that somewhere on the BW website.   For a couple of days she woke at 5.30 but not since thankfully.  I tried keeping her up to 9am after waking at 6 but that seemed to backfire and she did a short nap.  So now I’m keeping it at 8.30/45).

I don't have any experience with first nap affecting wake up so really don't know if it's related. but good you're keeping thins first A time shorter. 3 hrs would be much too much.

For the 2nd nap I try to get her down as soon as I see tired signs.  She really needs 4 naps but it’s very difficult.  It’s 4pm by the time she goes down for the 3rd nap after the feed and then she’s not tired enough to have another nap before bedtime.  Then I have an overtired baby, almost every night. Not screaming, but still hard to settle.   It's very very frustrating!  I'll try moving the 2nd nap forward as you suggest.

at 6,5 months she may just be dropping her catnap. I think that's what happened to us too. for some time we just had a really tired baby in the evening and we had to put her down sooner, but after a week or so she just adjusted and was good on 3 naps [before moving to 2... ].

I wonder whether to just move all the feed times earlier, say start at 6.30, then 10.30, 2,30, 6.00.  Then feed time would be after she got up and she wouldn’t be tired for her feeds - she’s often tired for the solids and 3pm feed.  I’m just hoping she’ll eventually get back to 7am wake up but maybe I should forget about that for now   

I think it's a good idea. if she's waking earlier you should adjust feedings to her wake up/activity times.

I remember you said your DD wakes at 6.30 but occasionally sleeps till 7.30.  How long do you let her sleep before waking her in the morning?  I used to always wake DD at 7, unless she’d had a 6am feed then might let her sleep till 7.30 (doesn’t happen now).

oh, I let her sleep as long as she wants too because I love my sleep too! it only happens over the weekend when we're home and I'm not at work. then, I don't mind her sleeping longer as she goes to bed 7:30pm anyway. but when I work she wakes earlier by herself or because of my alarm so no problems here.

Had a dreadful night last night, she kept waking up, not a hunger cry.   Fed her at 9.30 (early DF).  Shush-patted her back to sleep at 11.30 and 1am.  Then at 2.30 I tried the same but she kept jolting awake, I was nearly there 3 times. Ended up feeding her at 5am!!!  She hasn't got a cold.  I don’t think it was teething, she didn’t bite down on the teething ring I gave her. Perhaps I ate too much chocolate yesterday and it got in my milk, making her wakeful??  Bad mummy, won't be doing that again!     She only does this wake-up thing very rarely - usually after an overstimulating day eg.  Christmas Day.  (I didn't think yesterday was anything unusual).  And back to normal the next night.  Here’s hoping! 

yes, it could have been sth you ate and the overstimulation.
I hope las night was better for you. 

Monika

[traineeparent]

Hi there
The night after that one she woke several times as well. I gave her paracetamol thinking she was teething but she still woke up 45 mins later, and no teeth have appeared.  Looking back I think she had a bit of a cold - slight temperature and a bit snuffly, nothing major though.

Those 2 bad nights changed things though.   Mon, Tues, Wed she did a 35 min nap then a 1.5-2 hr nap!! Then a catnap.  Today (Thurs) unfortunately she's back to 3 x 35-45 min nap.     Last night (Wed) I put her down earliest yet and she actually fell asleep by 7pm!!! About 45 mins earlier than usual.   She woke up cooing at 4.30 and went back to sleep thank goodness!! I was lying there dreading she'd start crying.   Then woke again at 7 - heard me I think, I was going in anyway.  Maybe that was too much sleep??  I hope she's just catching up on sleep. 

I'm going on the basis of keeping the A times to 2-2.5 hrs.  2.25 seems about right.  And I'm putting her down early if that 3rd nap finishes more than 2 hrs before bedtime.  We'll see what happens....   I'll adjust the feed times if necessary. 

I'm really considering using white noise now. Just wonder what would happen if I only use it during the day.  She's fine at night really.

Thanks for the support.   

[*Mona*]

hi again

if she had a cold that's understandable she was waking up more etc. and now can well be making up, true.

do continue with your routine, I hope it will turn out ok finally.

as for white noise- I used to use it for naps and in the evening but only until dd would fall asleep, so maybe for 15-20min a time. when I was sure she was sleeping, I would turn white noise off.

good luck
monika