General Sleep Issues

[stridey]

Hi there, my 18 wk old DD is a pretty good sleeper, so I have been told by other mums. Below is her usual daily routine.
E - 7 - 7:30 = BF
A - 7:30 - 8:30
S - 8:30 - 9:30 - used to be till 10am but changed about 1 month ago to 9:30am

E - 9:30 - 10 = BF
A - 10 - 11:30ish
S -11:30 - 1

E - 1 - 1:30 = BF
A - 1:30 - 2:30
S -2:30 - 4:00 - sometimes I wake DD here as I don't want her to sleep too long b4 her big sleep at night and so she can get a little 'catnap' in b4 her night sleep - should I be doing this?

E - 4:00 - 4:30 = BF
A - 4:30 - 5:30
S -5:30 - 6:15 - this 'catnap' doesn't always happen if not she is usually tired by about 7ish but I try to stretch it as far as possible without a total 'meltdown' just b4 bedtime.

E - 6:15 - 6:45 = BF - or FF sometimes 7oz
DD seems to get abit frustrated at this time. My friend mentioned that my milk may be abit 'watery' at this time due to a busy day?? I will always offer DD the breast at the beginning though.
A - 6:45 - 7:30
S - 7:30pm - 7:00am

DF - 9:00 = 4oz - she usually goes on 'automatic pilot' for this one and is asleep for most of this feed and if she does wake up she has usually fallen back asleep by the time her head hits the pillow

My main questions are these

* As she is a good sleeper through the night is the 1hr sleep in the morning something I need to change? I figure she has just slept for 12 hrs so this is pretty good. If she wakes a little earlier and I can hear her chatting in her cot I just leave her to see if she will pop back to sleep after the usual sleep cycle of 20mins. She usually doesn't but figure I will give it a go as she is not 'hard-out' crying just chatting with the odd whimper.
* At what age is it wise to start changing her to the 4 hr E.A.S.Y.?

I guess I don't want to start something that I will have to correct later on, in a few months or more, as she will be so used to a 3 - 3:5 hr E.A.S.Y. routine.

I Know Tracey says that all bubs are unique and I generally go by DD's sleep cues. I must admit that I am abit of a clock-watcher but the usual time DD lasts is 1.30hrs - 1.45.

Any suggestions welcome and thanks in advance.

Cheers
Kiwi from NZ

[vadensmommy]

Sounds like you are doing super super well, congrats! 
around 4 mo's many lo's start transitioning into a 4hr EASY.  Our dd is bottlefed, and is also 18wks and already on a 4hr EASY.  With BF lo's though sometimes it takes longer (when they are a little older) to transition to a 4hr EASY from what I've read - other moms may have more first hand advice on that end.

I started to notice that dd was napping shorter and wasn't interested in her bottle and that is why I started to go longer between feeds.  You may want to consider transitioning to a 3.5hr EASY.  You can go cold turkey or more gradually.  Being BF I would tend to think the gradual method would give you BOTH a chance to gradually adjust - both your milk supply, and her tummy, since you would essentially be dropping a feeding once you get to 3.5 hours, and would want her to take in more during each feed to compensate.  Here is a link on how to do the transition gradually. 

https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=63161.0

Keep up the great job - it is great when things are so predictable and you can rely on the routine you and your lo have created to get things done, and have a good time all at the same time!!!  Hope this helps!

[Layla]

Hi there. I agree... your lo is sleeping super well!!!

* As she is a good sleeper through the night is the 1hr sleep in the morning something I need to change? I figure she has just slept for 12 hrs so this is pretty good. If she wakes a little earlier and I can hear her chatting in her cot I just leave her to see if she will pop back to sleep after the usual sleep cycle of 20mins. She usually doesn't but figure I will give it a go as she is not 'hard-out' crying just chatting with the odd whimper.

If she's doing a 12hr night then 1hr in the morning might be all that she needs so I wouldn't so anything to change that. A nap of 45mins is sometimes enough as a morning nap.... if their nights are good (as in my case). I used to also leave my lo in her cot chatting and cooing. I don't see anything wrong with this.

* At what age is it wise to start changing her to the 4 hr E.A.S.Y.?

Its usually around 4 months (as per book) but as Tracy did say, every bub is different and my lo wasn't ready for 4hr until she was close to 8-9 months. So if she can only handle 1.5hrs and sleeping well then I would leave her as is. She will show you she is ready when she is not SO hungry every 3hrs or when her naps start messing about. So instead of taking a 1.5hr nap, she will take a 45min nap or she will take longer time falling asleep for naps or her nights might be messing about..... you'll be able to see the change in her routine.

Good luck & post back if you have any other q's
Layla

[stridey]

Hi there, thanks for the great advice ladies. I just didn't want to miss the 4 month window and end up doing a big 'fix up' later on. I think I will just follow her sleep cues and keep an eye on this in a log.....bit of a 'freak' in terms of my log but it has paid off b4.
Cheers and will pop back on to this thread to see what others have to say.

[stridey]

Hi there ladies, we are trying to move to a 3 1/2 hr E.A.S.Y programme but there are a few glitches. I am watching DD's sleep cues and the clock abit and trying to keep her up for 1.45mins. This seems to be working and she is settling well and in quicker time than usual BUT she is waking about 1 to 1.15mins after she has gone down. So really only a 2.30 - 3.30 hr E.A.S.Y at a stretch. A big difference of 1hr sometimes.
YESTERDAY
E:7:30 - 8:00 - let her sleep in abit is this right?
A:8:00 - 9:15
S:9:15 - 10:15 - here I left her for 20mins, as she was just chatting to herself and she went back to sleep till 10:45 and had her feed at 100ish.
TODAY
E:7:00 - 7:30 - woke at 6:50 but left till 7:00
A:7:30 - 8:40
S:8:40 - 9: 35 - have I left her for 20mins, at the moment to see if she will go back to sleep, just chatting with the odd cry.....am thinking that something might have broke her sleep.
She has been abit hungrier than usual over the past few days so might be going through a growth spurt??.....she is now 18wks.
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated as I don't want to regress and regret I didn't pick it up earlier.
Cheers
Kiwi from NZ

[vadensmommy]

hey there,
still sounds like you are doing great to me.  My only thought is she may be waking a little early from her naps because she might be a tad overtired, and is just adjusting to the new routine?  My guess is that will settle down as she gets used to being awake a little longer.  During this transition maybe just try to keep her A time very low key - no big noisy toys or overstimulating activities, and see if that helps any.  Obviously it isn't super bad because she's taking at least an hour nap (if she was way overtired, it would probably be more like 30 or 45 minutes).  And you're right, if she is going through a growth spurt that may be affecting her naps a bit too as well as her eating patterns.  But all in all if she is happily cooing herself back to sleep when she wakes a tad early from her naps (even with the odd fussiness during that time) then I wouldn't worry too much about the actual S time because she is still relaxed and enjoying herself during the nap time. 

I never stress to much about an EXACT wake up time.  For us as long as it is within 30 minutes or so of the ideal, I just go with it.  I do still try to put dd to bed at the same time - so even if she wakes up 15 or 30 min later than usual I still try to get her to bed at the normal time so she won't be overtired - a later bedtime almost always translates into an hour or more EARLIER wake up for us. 

For instance we were at the in laws last night and dd was over an hour late getting into the bed, and woke up for the day a full hour and a half before time to get up, and wouldn't go back to sleep.  So that put us over two hours short for sleep last night.  i made sure I put her to bed extra early tonight just to try and let her catch up a bit and that usually will fix it and hopefully she'll have a normal wake up time tomorrow.  Yet I digress.

I would continue to go with the flow a bit - you definitely don't want to not feed her enough during the day esp if she is going through a growth spurt because whenever I miss the beginnings of a growth spurt that usually means at least a couple of nights with an extremely early am waking (4ish) for a feed, and that throws off the morning bottle at 6ish when we start our day.  And that never is fun.  Keep reading those cues and you are doing a fabulous job!!  If one thing isn't changing with our lo's it's another isn't it.  But it is all so much fun I have to say

[stridey]

Cheers, thanks for the fantastic advice. I will do the low-key thingee during A time. You talked about putting your DD back to bed at the same time, even if she wakes up 15 - 30mins later than usual, to get back on track. Do you find that your DD gets abit fussy because she isn't ready to go down yet and protests abit? Just wondering as our DD has done that b4? I will definitley try it though.
You are right about being 'tad overtired' as I have been watching her sleep cues and this generally kicks-in about 1:15 - 1:30mins after her wake up/feed time and I have been stretching it out abit to 1:45mins.
Just took DD to the doctors and she has a sore throat so with this, change in routine and a possible growth spurt it's not surprising that the poor wee thing is abit out of sorts.
Thanks once again. Your advice is really appreciated.
Cheers
Bronnie

[vadensmommy]

Bless her heart, illness just sucks doesn't it!!  I still haven't quite figured out how "flexible" to be when DD is sick (it's really only happened once -two weeks ago she had her first ear infection ick).  I let her sleep more than normal, and that seemed to be ok for her. 

I do still try (key word is TRY to put her to bed at the same time - earlier if she woke earlier, same time if she woke later.  DD is an angel baby so if she isn't quite ready for sleep she'll talk to herself a while and nod off whenever she "needs" to I guess.  At least I've put her in bed, and her body can decide when it is ready to go to sleep - we never had to do serious "sleep training" pat/shhh type thing so I kind of let her and her body be the judge of when it is time to sleep, I just make sure I've set the stage for good sleep and let her do the rest most of the time. 

And if worse comes to worse and I see the catnap is going to cut in on her night time rest I might make it a bit shorter to get her to bed on time.  To be honest every day is a bit different for us because DD is at a sitter in the morning time since I work part time, so a lot of what happens depends on how she did that morning according to the sitter.

Let us know how the low key activity goes.  I've found that I have to keep the tv off - even the flickering lights are extremely fascinating to my lo, and probably most others.  Sometimes I've put her in her swing for that last bit because she LOVES the swing and would absolutely nap there every time if I let her, but I make sure to get her and and start our go to bed routine before she starts to realllly fall asleep, but it helps keep those last awake moments when I've been stretching her A time fairly low key.
Keep up the great work!!!

[stridey]

Hi there, I am continuing to try the low key thing and will see how it goes. I don't usually have the t.v on during the day so it is quiet during DD's E and A times and it's just alot of chatting and playing.

I did a longer afternoon sleep yesterday as she had a shorter nap in the morning and the doctors after that so I just kinda let her sleep abit longer in the afternoon, which she did, but no longer than 3.30mins after her feed.

In relation to her sleeping, on time etc, I tend to put DD down about 1.30 - 1.45mins after her wake up time, even if it is abit later. I will have a go at putting her down at the same time. Am always willing to give it a go. I read in another thread to put bubs down when they have their feed, even if they wake up earlier, but DD has always been a 'when she wakes up girl' I figure after her little mantra thingee if she is still wide awake she was not ready for a sleep so I get her up and then pop her back to bed when she does her tired cues. It usually works. I think she is usually an angel/textbook, as she has been on a routine since a little bubs, but with a dash!! of 'spirited' abit like her mum really!!!!!

In terms of the 'catnap' I find that I often have to wake DD after 40 mins or so otherwise she will sleep too long and into her nightime sleep and I don't want her waking too early in the morning!!!!!

Cheers and will see how the A and S times go. Once again thanks for your advice kinda nice to know I seem to be on the right track. Sometimes it is just a case of confirmation for some else.
Bronnie

[vadensmommy]

I know what you mean about getting feedback about at least being on the right track.  Having found this web site I feel like I finally found my "baby manual" that they must have forgotten to give me at the hospital 

[stridey]

Oh my goodness what a week. We now have a 1 hr napper. Now I know this may be a long nap to some mums but when I am used to 1:30 it gives you abit of a jolt.
I have read the post about transitioning from 3 -3.5 - 4hr E.A.S.Y  and am going with that and trying to go with the flow.....abit hard for me as I am abit of a clock-watcher!!!!!

The thing I am confused about now is I assume that the reason we keep our LO's up abit longer is so that they get abit more tired out and sleep longer, however, at the moment this is not the case. DD is only sleeping 1 hr. I have been leaving her in her cot, as mentioned earlier as she just chats away to herself for about 20mins. I don’t want her to get used to me rushing in the minute she peeps as we have never done this b4 and I definitely don’t want to start that up, and then I get her up at about the 3 hr E mark for her feed so she really isn’t transitioning to a 3.5hr E.A.S.Y. but is still a 3 hr E.A.S.Y. but is just up for longer and sleeps for less…..ekkkk

I have read on other posts to use that early wake up time as A time and then do the E so I guess it goes.....A.E.A.S?

Do I need start PU/PD?
Great to keep getting your suggestions. Has your LO always been a solid sleeper? Am just abit shocked as DD has.

Cheers
Kiwi from NZ

[vadensmommy]

AEAS or SAEA, whichever, is pretty normal, and DD did that some while transitioning to the two hour.  As far as we go - she was never ever ever a good napper at the shorter EASY times - a CHRONIC 45 minute napper, so yes I would have killed for an hour nap back then   But now that we've gone to the 4 hour easy she takes 2x 1.5-2hour naps and sometimes a catnap as well.  The catnap would be ideal, but with DD at the sitter's in the morning our times get screwed up and naptimes are never when the "need" to be so sometimes the afternoon nap is much later so it kind of combines with the catnap.  That has worked OK for us, but again is not ideal.

I think our girls are about the same age - lo was 19wks yesterday, and she's staying awake a good 2 hours now before showing sleepy signs.  We didn't really work up to that, just kind of went cold turkey and that was ok.  She was cranky a few days with staying up that long, but has never been hard to put down for a nap when she is truly tired.  Not sure how easy your lo would be to go cold turkey, but that has definitely helped our short nap situation!  When we were transitioning and she was still so used to the 45 minute naps, I just got her up and did A time until it was time to eat again, and for a while she was pretty dog gone tired by the time we got to the next E time (read: she fell asleep during the next bottle), but the naps did improve on their own for us. 

If your lo is waking up and just talking, again I'd still leave her.  If you are trying to extend the nap then I would think pu/pd would be appropriate - IF she is crying.  Every now and then we deal with 45 minute naps, but I can pretty consistently extend them by getting her up if she is crying and doing a bit of rocking in the rocker and singing our wind down song.  If she is hungry (from our wacky schedule btwn sitter and work) sometimes I'll feed her a bit before putting her back down to finish the nap.  Obviously feeding in the middle of the nap isn't ideal, but there are times when I know dd is waking early from hunger just because of the way our day has fallen. 

I think my first course of attack would be to extend those wake up times - you can try cold turkey, and if it doesn't work and she ends up in a meltdown you know that won't work and will have to do it more gradual, or you can just keep with the gradual plan - whatever you think will work best for y'all!  And hopefully the naps will improve on their own like ours did - if not, you may have to try more nap extension techniques like wake 2 sleep, etc.  I hear DD waking from her nap - most likely hungry   Good luck!

[stridey]

Hi there, thanks for the advice. O.K. so this is what has been happening.
DD is staying up for 1:30 - 1:45, definitely 1:45 in the morning. I know the BWSAYP talks about transitioning them and having them stay awake for that bit longer in the morning but she is usually able to stay awake 1:45 for the rest of her A times so thought I would keep with that, don't want to put her down too early.....it is such a juggling act isn't it?? And then in a few days go to the 2hr A time in the morning. DD seems better able to cope with little chunks of A time rather than cold turkey.

DD is still as hungry at 3hrs so there is definitely not a lack of interest in food at that time, as mentions as one of the cues for transitioning.

Yesterday it was up for 1:45 and then DD only slept for 1hr and this included her usual 'mantra' which is about 5 - 10mins max. Again I left her for 20mins to chat, and got her up so still the 3hrs from the start of her last feed, however, in her afternoon sleep she did the same, pretty much to the minute.....scary!!!!! and I left her for the 20mins chatter. She did abit more of a wail, but no hard-out crying and I left her another 5 mins and she went back to sleep for 2 hrs. Now I know this is not ideal to have bubs sleep for 1hr and then 2 hrs but I figured she must have needed it after the past two days.

I have found with our DD that if we go in to intervene too early she thinks it's time to chat. I am abit reluctant to do PU/PD for this reason. I was re-reading BWSAYP last night and saw that PU/PD was only to be used after sh/pat and if DD was really crying. We haven't had to use
PU/PD or sh/pat thus far.

Basically in a long winded way.....far out I can chat!!!!! what do I do if I am trying to transition her to 3.5 E.A.S.Y. and she continues to be up for the needed A time but is still not sleeping for longer than 1 hr. She is getting in a good amount of food and we are offering abit more after she has had her usual amount just to be sure. I know this is not meant to happen 'just like that' but I am abit of a pre-planner and like to know what is ahead of me.....now I know that totally freaky as LO's are so unpredicitable but I figure it is just my personality type!! My DH just shakes his head sometimes and smiles at me!!

Yep, DD is 20wks tomorrow. Worries aside, isn't it a wonderful age. They are so interactive and seem to be doing something different every day.....most probably why DD's sleeping patterns are changing.

Anyway, poor you listening to me but I really appreciate your advice it is so easy to follow.

Looking forward to your ideas
Cheers
Kiwi from NZ

[vadensmommy]

It is a fabulous age isn't it!  All those smiles make all the frustrations soooo worth it!     I am a counselor by trade so listening (and talking too obviously hehe) is lots of fun to me.  I think that is why I love this website so much - so much practical advice and people who have been there and done that.  And we're all experts - we're moms!

DD is 19 weeks but was born a week late, so does that make her 20 weeks adjusted age??  You know they talk about premies that were a month early and they adjust their age down for that, and I always wondered if it worked the same for overdue babies .  Out of curiosity, how much does your lo typically take in a normal feeding?  Are you still BFing?  And how much does your lo weigh?  I know you aren't supposed to compare, but we just had her 4mo checkup (a little late) and DD weighed 14lb 4oz and was 25 3/4in - in the 75th percentile.  She typically takes anywhere from 6-8oz in her bottles, averaging right at 7oz per feed - 4 feeds per day plus a DF which is typically 3 or 4 oz.  Just curious!

I wonder if hunger is driving some of these early nap wakings?  I am assuming you haven't started solids - we have not, but everybody and their brother keeps pressuring me to do so, including the pediatrician (I'm ignoring them currently as she is gaining weight fine obviously and a bit constipated at the moment).  What if you get her up in the morning, feed her, do your awake time and before you start your wind down for a nap, top her up?  So something like EAES?  If you are still mostly breastfeeding, maybe your supply hasn't picked up enough to get her to go the 3.5-4hrs between feedings?  Just thinking out loud.  I am no BF expert by any means, we only BF for a week, and my milk never came in so onto the formula we went.  I was heartbroken, I really wanted to BF, but as my Pediatrician said - at least we have formula, otherwise lo would have died!  A little harsh, but at the time it really did make me feel better.   

Keep me updated, it will be interesting to see what works!

[stridey]

Hi again, great to chat. I am a primary school teacher so I think that is why I like the whole 'order thingee'!!!!!

A good question about the age adjusting. Our DD was born 2 weeks overdue. DD is 50/50 BF and FF at the mo. When she has a FF she usually takes about 200mls which I think is about 7oz. For her DF she only takes 100mls = 3.5oz. DD was weighed and measured the other day as well and she is now 5.87kgs = 12lbs 9oz and 64cm not too sure what that is in inches.

No we haven't started solids yet and I would like to leave it till 6 months, as she is growing and developing really well, but I actually said to DH last night that I wondered if DD was getting the munchies for abit of solids in her daily diet. People typically start solids here at about 6 months but not too sure where you hail from.

I wanted to BF for at least the first 6 months but when DD was 7wks I went into hospital so it was a case of 'emergency FF' and she took it really well so she has been having abit of both ever since. I am still abit gutted about it but DD is doing well on both so that is the main thing.

Far out I can't believe your ped said that.....harsh is not the word!!!!!

I will keep you posted on the whole sleep and eating thing.

Cheers
Bronnie